ANTIFA

[bazzel]

You are conflating presence with achievement.

Just because the clerk is present at the bakery does not mean his presence put the bakery on the map. The baker having done it for years, built the business from the ground up is solely responsible for the bakery standing where it is.

Now, I'm not saying there should be no growth potential and ownership for the clerk. That does happen in a Capitalist society. It just depends on the individual and their willingness to sacrifice time and resources for the business. Obviously if you want to be an owner and not a clerk you can always leave a job and start your own, at great risk which is the risk the baker endured.

How is this not fair?

Marx wasn't too bothered about bun sellers when he made his critique of capitalism tbh. The capitalist class were.
The capitalist class are the owners of wealth,who use that wealth and capital they have to increase itself.
He's talking about the big landlords,banks, industrialits.
But,on your petite bougeois bun selling scenario I'd say....
There's no great risk starting a business,the risk is that you'll end up a worker. Being a worker is the reality for most people anyway.
The communist way
Bakery (building,machinery etc) is not privately owned.
Whoever works there (2, 10,100) has a say in how the business is run, and how the profits are used.

 

[HumansSuck]

There's no great risk starting a business

I'd argue this is where you're out of your element.

Starting a business is a huge risk financially. It puts the owner at the kind of risk that drives them to working 16 hour days. I say this as someone who opted out of that responsibility and watched others dive head in. At great risk and peril of their personal lives. Some of whom had very maladjusted kids due to their distant parents. If the clerk stowed away years of financial savings and then decided to start a business with it, is that not great risk? That was the baker once upon a time.

 

[bazzel]

99% of politicians in the public eye are the same. Plus I imagine they have all had their palms greased by at least interest one group.

What I mean is, just because farage is a white British bloke,like me. I don't feel his anti immigration spiel strikes a chord with me. The people he's pointing the finger at even though they're not white British have more in common ,with how they live, where they live,what jobs they do etc.nThan I do with Nigel

 

[bazzel]

I'd argue this is where you're out of your element.

Starting a business is a huge risk financially. It puts the owner at the kind of risk that drives them to working 16 hour days. I say this as someone who opted out of that responsibility and watched others dive head in. At great risk and peril of their personal lives. Some of whom had very maladjusted kids due to their distant parents. If the clerk stowed away years of financial savings and then decided to start a business with it, is that not great risk? That was the baker once upon a time.

You're really painting a nostalgic picture of this bun shop,the clerk stowing away all his paychecks so he too,can one day..own a bun shop.
Ok, so you're saying,it's a shit life and your kids suffer because of starting a business,well, don't do it then.
Again, if it all goes wrong and the business fails. What do you do? You get a job. Just like the majority of people have got a job. Not that bad really

 

[bazzel]

You're really painting a nostalgic picture of this bun shop,the clerk stowing away all his paychecks so he too,can one day..own a bun shop.
Ok, so you're saying,it's a shit life and your kids suffer because of starting a business,well, don't do it then.
Again, if it all goes wrong and the business fails. What do you do? You get a job. Just like the majority of people have got a job. Not that bad really

The way capitalism has evolved has left less and less room for the small business. They've all been pushed out by the bigger corporations,who don't operate on a level playing field and squeeze the small business owners out and push them back into the working class.
Communism isn't the biggest threat to the small business, capitalism is

 

[HumansSuck]

You're really painting a nostalgic picture of this bun shop,the clerk stowing away all his paychecks so he too,can one day..own a bun shop.
Ok, so you're saying,it's a shit life and your kids suffer because of starting a business,well, don't do it then.
Again, if it all goes wrong and the business fails. What do you do? You get a job. Just like the majority of people have got a job. Not that bad really

It isn't nostalgia. It's reality for all of these people big and small. You are again out of your element here. How many companies have you started? How many small businesses have you grown into a corporation? Let's go even smaller. How many director or chief executive titles have you held?

The machine has many parts that make it what it is and you socialists time and time again prove you can't see them. Do you think what all these people do to make our lives easier is easy? I get it. Some janitor out there busts ass for minimum wage. That custodial labor is far, far from the entire picture. From janitors to laborers, to contractors and directors, executives, CTO and CEO the effort required is enormous and many of us, millions and tens of millions often benefit.

How do you think small business owners wind up pulling double duty? I've been in start ups. Very small companies and I've seen them grow to huge success. I've played part in their expansion, often pulling double shifts myself to earn the pay days. I made the personal decision years ago to not put money before my free time. That was a personal choice. Sure, I'm nowhere near as rich as my contemporaries but I'm not bothered by that because I did not sacrifice the way they did. If people didn't make those sacrifices we wouldn't have the products we have today. We wouldn't have so many quality of life things to call the modern world what it is. All of it requires personal sacrifice and we reward those sacrifices to make society even better.

Even those enormously wealthy executives. They don't dick around. There's a reason why CEOs get paid what they get paid and why they usually have a high burnout rate. The responsibility put on their shoulders is massive. They bear the brunt of mistakes made by hundreds of people sometimes and they do it unflinching. When product rolls out unprepared they eat the blame on a financial loss. I've been in those rooms. You have no idea the shit they deal with and it isn't just an insult it's an insult with a million dollar penalty attached to it.

I've seen all of this in my 20 years in the labor market. Seen it and been in those positions of hiring, firing, recruiting and working weekends. If someone isn't rich in America it's because they did two important things. They first did not sacrifice their free time and energy and second they did not cease spending what they had. Ultimately it isn't bad to be a poor laborer. IF you made the right choices in life for what you wanted out of life, what you valued in life then everything is just fine.

The way capitalism has evolved has left less and less room for the small business. They've all been pushed out by the bigger corporations,who don't operate on a level playing field and squeeze the small business owners out and push them back into the working class.
Communism isn't the biggest threat to the small business, capitalism is

This isn't the fault of Capitalism. This is the fault of government. When governments institute policies global and domestic that favor larger businesses and punish smaller business you get only large corporations. Take minimum wage. Minimum wage benefits large corporations and hurts small businesses. So too does blanket regulation. So too does tax policy changes that exempt large business. Like the tax break Amazon was due to get in Queens. All of that is crony Capitalism. The government is a vital component.

 

[kf3]

I also think starting a business is even more risky and difficult now. But not because of capitalism, because of shit corrupt self serving governments.

Pretending starting a business is just some easy thing is so obviously wrong that nothing that guy says means anyting. Humanssucks lefty twin.

 

[HumansSuck]

I also think starting a business is even more risky and difficult now. But not because of capitalism, because of shit corrupt self serving governments.

Pretending starting a business is just some easy thing is so obviously wrong that nothing that guy says means anyting. Humanssucks lefty twin.

Haha. I don't speak about things i'm unfamiliar with. That's because I can't be a Socialist.

 

[Joe E]

This isn't the fault of Capitalism. This is the fault of government. When governments institute policies global and domestic that favor larger businesses and punish smaller business you get only large corporations. Take minimum wage. Minimum wage benefits large corporations and hurts small businesses. So too does blanket regulation. So too does tax policy changes that exempt large business. Like the tax break Amazon was due to get in Queens. All of that is crony Capitalism. The government is a vile component.

An untrustworthy servant and a fearful master. How anyone could front Marxist theory in any of its offshoots or forms in the 21st Century is mind boggling.

 

[bazzel]

It isn't nostalgia. It's reality for all of these people big and small. You are again out of your element here. How many companies have you started? How many small businesses have you grown into a corporation? Let's go even smaller. How many director or chief executive titles have you held?

The machine has many parts that make it what it is and you socialists time and time again prove you can't see them. Do you think what all these people do to make our lives easier is easy? I get it. Some janitor out there busts ass for minimum wage. That custodial labor is far, far from the entire picture. From janitors to laborers, to contractors and directors, executives, CTO and CEO the effort required is enormous and many of us, millions and tens of millions often benefit.

How do you think small business owners wind up pulling double duty? I've been in start ups. Very small companies and I've seen them grow to huge success. I've played part in their expansion, often pulling double shifts myself to earn the pay days. I made the personal decision years ago to not put money before my free time. That was a personal choice. Sure, I'm nowhere near as rich as my contemporaries but I'm not bothered by that because I did not sacrifice the way they did. If people didn't make those sacrifices we wouldn't have the products we have today. We wouldn't have so many quality of life things to call the modern world what it is. All of it requires personal sacrifice and we reward those sacrifices to make society even better.

Even those enormously wealthy executives. They don't dick around. There's a reason why CEOs get paid what they get paid and why they usually have a high burnout rate. The responsibility put on their shoulders is massive. They bear the brunt of mistakes made by hundreds of people sometimes and they do it unflinching. When product rolls out unprepared they eat the blame on a financial loss. I've been in those rooms. You have no idea the shit they deal with and it isn't just an insult it's an insult with a million dollar penalty attached to it.

I've seen all of this in my 20 years in the labor market. Seen it and been in those positions of hiring, firing, recruiting and working weekends. If someone isn't rich in America it's because they did two important things. They first did not sacrifice their free time and energy and second they did not cease spending what they had. Ultimately it isn't bad to be a poor laborer. IF you made the right choices in life for what you wanted out of life, what you valued in life then everything is just fine.



This isn't the fault of Capitalism. This is the fault of government. When governments institute policies global and domestic that favor larger businesses and punish smaller business you get only large corporations. Take minimum wage. Minimum wage benefits large corporations and hurts small businesses. So too does blanket regulation. So too does tax policy changes that exempt large business. Like the tax break Amazon was due to get in Queens. All of that is crony Capitalism. The government is a vital component.

That is ultimately the development of capitalism. The competition, the bigger players eating up the smaller. Money and wealth travels up in the capitalist heirachy. Leading to massive concentration of power in a small number of people's hands.
The corruption of politics is a given. The big capitalist s have there hands on all the leavers of power. The media is in the hands of the billionaire owners, the banks are in the hands of billionaire owners, manufacturing, agriculture.Housing, medical care(in the us)... Is it any wonder that the agendas of billionaires,low taxation,free markets, private property ARE the the dominant ideas of our politics.
Who benefits? Not the worker,not the small business. The capitalist class, they dominate policy because they have the power

 

[HumansSuck]

The corruption of politics is a given.

It's not. It's not a given that's the problem. You are excusing extreme behavior in government and lambasting extreme behavior in corporations. That's not right. That shows a clear bias and favoritism.

When the American government was limited in its power long before they had commerce clauses and minimum wage rules introduced it had a clear agenda attached to it. Like the Affordable Care Act. An entirely government driven agenda that resulted in numerous small shops closing up. The market didn't ask for ACA. It was democrats and tyrannical bureaucrats that did that.

Who benefits? Not the worker,not the small business. The capitalist class, they dominate policy because they have the power

We the people only benefit from small government. No matter how you shape government to a larger and more encroaching degree the people get fucked. That's been true all of human history.

 

[Joe E]

It's not. It's not a given that's the problem. You are excusing extreme behavior in government and lambasting extreme behavior in corporations. That's not right. That shows a clear bias and favoritism.

When the American government was limited in its power long before they had commerce clauses and minimum wage rules introduced it had a clear agenda attached to it. Like the Affordable Care Act. An entirely government driven agenda that resulted in numerous small shops closing up. The market didn't ask for ACA. It was democrats and tyrannical bureaucrats that did that.



We the people only benefit from small government. No matter how you shape government to a larger and more encroaching degree the people get fucked. That's been true all of human history.

Lord Acton: Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. How many times do The Soviets have to fail until people believe that it's an unworkable system? The greatest flaw in Marx's theory is that it fails to take into account basic human nature. It's belief that envy, greed, sloth can be trained out of people is juvenile in its simplicity and stupidity. Never happened. Never will. Fucken retards.

 

[HumansSuck]

Lord Acton: Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. How many times do The Soviets have to fail until people believe that it's an unworkable system? The greatest flaw in Marx's theory is that it fails to take into account basic human nature. It's belief that envy, greed, sloth can be trained out of people is juvenile in its simplicity and stupidity. Never happened. Never will. Fucken retards.

That AND the inability to perceive the grandeur of the market. This conversation with @bazzel for example. That he can think starting something as "simple" as a bakery is no risk and so easy is a good shot of how Socialists think and how they arrive at their conclusions. A complete lack of reality in these concepts are what drive Socialist markets to failure. Basically why the Soviet Union failed but the United States didn't was the ability and interest in transitioning factories making toasters instead of tanks. That's a large example but many others exist. Venezuela not being able to perceive the self life of oil prices to invest in sustainable product is another.

 

[Joe E]

That AND the inability to perceive the grandeur of the market. This conversation with @bazzel for example. That he can think starting something as "simple" as a bakery is no risk and so easy is a good shot of how Socialists think and how they arrive at their conclusions. A complete lack of reality in these concepts are what drive Socialist markets to failure. Basically why the Soviet Union failed but the United States didn't was the ability and interest in transitioning factories making toasters instead of tanks.

And vice versa. American manufacturing is rife with examples of that transition. Union Fork and Hoe made shovels and pitch forks. Then transitioned to making bayonets for M1 Rifles for the Army, for example.

 

[HumansSuck]

And vice versa. American manufacturing is rife with examples of that transition. Union Fork and Hoe made shovels and pitch forks. Then transitioned to making bayonets for M1 Rifles for the Army, for example.

View attachment 5855

Pretty cool!

 

[bazzel]

That AND the inability to perceive the grandeur of the market. This conversation with @bazzel for example. That he can think starting something as "simple" as a bakery is no risk and so easy is a good shot of how Socialists think and how they arrive at their conclusions. A complete lack of reality in these concepts are what drive Socialist markets to failure. Basically why the Soviet Union failed but the United States didn't was the ability and interest in transitioning factories making toasters instead of tanks. That's a large example but many others exist. Venezuela not being able to perceive the self life of oil prices to invest in sustainable product is another.

So . None of you have explained what is the incredible risk that bun shop owners make,other than being cast into the working class if their business fails. When being a worker is the reality for the majority of people anyway

 

[bazzel]

Lord Acton: Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. How many times do The Soviets have to fail until people believe that it's an unworkable system? The greatest flaw in Marx's theory is that it fails to take into account basic human nature. It's belief that envy, greed, sloth can be trained out of people is juvenile in its simplicity and stupidity. Never happened. Never will. Fucken retards.

Hate to break it to you mate but there is no basic human nature. Why is greed more basic to human nature than sharing.
Human nature is flexible

 

[bazzel]

That AND the inability to perceive the grandeur of the market. This conversation with @bazzel for example. That he can think starting something as "simple" as a bakery is no risk and so easy is a good shot of how Socialists think and how they arrive at their conclusions. A complete lack of reality in these concepts are what drive Socialist markets to failure. Basically why the Soviet Union failed but the United States didn't was the ability and interest in transitioning factories making toasters instead of tanks. That's a large example but many others exist. Venezuela not being able to perceive the self life of oil prices to invest in sustainable product is another.

To be honest mate there are socialists and capitalists who could argue this on a much deeper level than we are. To say you've worked out how the Soviet Union failed and why the USA didn't off the back of a chat about a bun store on a boxing site is pretty funny

 

[Joe E]

Hate to break it to you mate but there is no basic human nature. Why is greed more basic to human nature than sharing.
Human nature is flexible

Then human nature is mutable, no? Which blows up Marxist theory that persons may be trained. Until such time as the true Communist Man emerges, and the Socialist state that emerges after the destruction of the bourgeoisie fades away. GTFO.

 

[bazzel]

And I love the term 'the granduer of the market' Your right I don't perceive it