What's your opinion of Antifa?

  • They fight for a good cause. They're good.

    Votes: 7 10.3%
  • I don't know.

    Votes: 2 2.9%
  • I don't like them.

    Votes: 32 47.1%
  • I hate them, because i'm a fascist. Heil Hitler

    Votes: 27 39.7%

  • Total voters
    68

Jack

P4P Star
Jul 29, 2012
7,986
1,792
The idea that Sam Harris or Jordan Peterson are morally worse than David Duke is just outrageous. People calling Sam Harris racist are only doing so because they want him discredited, nothing more than that, but it's as childish an accusation as could ever be aimed at a person. It epitomises how people can't disagree, don't want to waste time formulating an argument so just go to a level where the accusation is so severe, it ruins the other persons credibility for them.
 

Jack

P4P Star
Jul 29, 2012
7,986
1,792
He definitely gave the racial intelligence views of Charles Murray a subtle but undeniable endorsement.
Is that wrong though? We all accept that there are differences in races, we're all happy to say that people of west African origin are typically faster, that northern Europeans are typically stronger and, it is relates to intelligence, even that Asian people statistically have a higher level of intelligence...this subject only becomes taboo when it's highlighted that black people typically have a lower level of intelligence. Is that because the science on it is wrong and if so, why does nobody take issue with the generalisations when they're praising a minority group?

I think it'd be perfectly normal for different groups to have varying levels of physically fitness, aptitude for creativity, intelligence levels and so on. That's just human nature and we aren't all equal - we deserve equality but there'll always be thousands, if not millions, of years of progress and evolution which leads us to have the skills and attributes we have today. Unfortunately, this subject is so taboo that there'll never be a full and accepted scientific analysis of it because if it was proven there are differences of IQ level, that would never be allowed to come out. There'd always be people crying racist.
 
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Jun 4, 2012
27,483
18,009
He definitely gave the racial intelligence views of Charles Murray a subtle but undeniable endorsement.
It doesn't make him a Nazi or a hateful racist, it makes him possibly wrong and it makes him definitely biased in how quickly he is willing to accept limited data on a topic. It is too simplistic to call someone racist for having a view that there are averages along ethnic lines around a specific intelligence test. I think it is foolish to argue that such lines are factual, as there are so many potential flaws in the research, and the data available is also too shallow. Moreover, that ignores the simple flaw with judging intelligence solely by IQ.

However, it would be fairly odd for someone positing that they were genetically superior to place another race above them. Murray's work says that East Asians on average have higher IQ's than white people...describing over 1 billion people of another ethnicity as "more intelligent" than your own demographic (to simplify his argument greatly) is not really what you would expect from a position of racial superiority.

Harris has done and said nothing (that I am aware of) which would remotely suggest he is racist or bigoted towards anyone for how they are born. I would say he is too obsessed with the flaws and failings of religion, and allows that to cloud him on some issues, and seeing the Bell Curve as somehow definitive on the issue of hereditary intelligence is foolish, rather than hateful.

Murray himself argued that it was NOT strictly genetic, but environmental too. Even so, there's a ton of factors involved in things like IQ. Something as simple as the nature of language can give someone a head start in acquiring stronger mathematical skills. Korean as a language lends itself far better to kids picking up numbers early on and grasping things like fractions earlier than English does. If you get to 10 years old feeling more adept at maths and so on, then you can have a self-fulfilling prophecy that leads to wider adult proficiency with number patterns and sequences etc.
 
Jul 29, 2012
17,603
2,970
Is that wrong though? We all accept that there are differences in races, we're all happy to say that people of west African origin are typically faster, that northern Europeans are typically stronger and, it is relates to intelligence, even that Asian people statistically have a higher level of intelligence...this subject only becomes taboo when it's highlighted that black people typically have a lower level of intelligence. Is that because the science on it is wrong and if so, why does nobody take issue with the generalisations when they're praising a minority group?

I think it'd be perfectly normal for different groups to have varying levels of physically fitness, aptitude for creativity, intelligence levels and so on. That's just human nature and we aren't all equal - we deserve equality but there'll always be thousands, if not millions, of years of progress and evolution which leads us to have the skills and attributes we have today. Unfortunately, this subject is so taboo that there'll never be a full and accepted scientific analysis of it because if it was proven there are differences of IQ level, that would never be allowed to come out. There'd always be people crying racist.
I think with these topics there is a very serious concern about motive. Why are we studying it, and what do we want from the results. I'm not assigning motives to Murray, and certainly not to Harris, but there are definitely people that try to use things like this as some sort of evidence of the validity of their worldview. These people don't understand how statistics between large groups of people work, and that it doesn't mean what they think it does.

Not really a reply to you, just mostly some thoughts on why people get suspicious with this stuff. I don't really blame them.
 

Bachafach

Antifa
Jul 2, 2019
975
264
24
Varaždin, Croatia

Christian Picciolini is a former skinhead who has wrote books on white nationalism and how young people get sucked in


Is it too difficult to believe those pushing scientific racism (Sam Harris) or poor people are poor because they are lazy and stupid (Ben Shapiro) or Hierarchy is natural (Jordan Peterson) would be more appealing than David Duke and how these three things would be just as detrimental to society?

I mean you do realize that most racists arent racist because they just hate different skin color but honestly believe groups of people are dumb, lazy and more prone to violence than this group. So when mainstreamers like Sam Harris endorses the bell curve or Jordan Peterson says racial castes systems are apart if nature thats who they are nodding their heads to.
 
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Jack

P4P Star
Jul 29, 2012
7,986
1,792
I think with these topics there is a very serious concern about motive. Why are we studying it, and what do we want from the results. I'm not assigning motives to Murray, and certainly not to Harris, but there are definitely people that try to use things like this as some sort of evidence of the validity of their worldview. These people don't understand how statistics between large groups of people work, and that it doesn't mean what they think it does.

Not really a reply to you, just mostly some thoughts on why people get suspicious with this stuff. I don't really blame them.
I agree, I'm sure there are many racists who'd be foaming at the mouth if they read a headline of "black people have lower IQs than whites". For that reason, I can understand why it's a taboo subject and why it'll never be fully supported by the scientific community. I don't think someone like Harris is racist for objectively looking at the facts and saying that there might be some validity to it.

Ultimately, people are always going to be fundamentally the same regardless of any of these differences. I'm not as strong as northern Europeans, not as clever as east Asians, not as athletic as west Africans...so what? You can get by in life with these minor differences, it makes no tangible difference to a persons life.
 

Dazl1212

Ripley, strong independent woman who don't no man
May 16, 2013
19,392
5,788
UK

Christian Picciolini is a former skinhead who has wrote books on white nationalism and how young people get sucked in


Is it too difficult to believe those pushing scientific racism (Sam Harris) or poor people are poor because they are lazy and stupid (Ben Shapiro) or Hierarchy is natural (Jordan Peterson) would be more appealing than David Duke and how these three things would be just as detrimental to society?
Scientific racism? There are differences between races that's a fact.

Not going to comment on Shapiro as I'm not a fan so I don't pay him much attention.

Again hiararchys are seen in practically every human civilization, so yeah I'd say they are pretty natural.

Nothing I have seen from any of these guys pushes people towards Nazism. Isn't Shapiro Jewish?
 

Jack

P4P Star
Jul 29, 2012
7,986
1,792
You do realize you agree with Sam harris on most things?
The guy in the video starts the video by linking the right wing to white supremacy. It's a foolish stance to begin with but the left constantly want to do this. The fact is, racism in any walk of life is absolutely minimal because it's an abhorrent viewpoint in life. That's why people who are genuinely racist are in a tiny, tiny minority of people but people like the host would have you believe it's, what, 30%? 40%? Maybe even 50% of people who see the world as us vs. them? It's ludicrous.
 
Jul 29, 2012
17,603
2,970
Scientific racism? There are differences between races that's a fact.

Not going to comment on Shapiro as I'm not a fan so I don't pay him much attention.

Again hiararchys are seen in practically every human civilization, so yeah I'd say they are pretty natural.

Nothing I have seen from any of these guys pushes people towards Nazism. Isn't Shapiro Jewish?
Shapiro is actually a big target of the alt-right. He gets death threats constantly, and pays a fuck ton for security for himself and his family because of that fact.
 
Jun 4, 2012
27,483
18,009
Nah they are calling him a hypocrite who uses coded language who makes excuses for white supremacist terrorism that hed never use for muslims. Actually watch the clip son.
I did. And seeing fake laughing from people who think it's a valid criticism to say "He doesn't speak/read Arabic" in regards to his take on Islam sums up their bias perfectly. Most of the Islamic world doesn't speak or read Arabic either. :lol:

I'd want to see Harris' entire speech on the issue rather than a carefully selected excerpt. Assuming that excerpt is accurate, he is indeed being a hypocrite, but all that hypocrisy shows is his obsession over religion, not a defence of white supremacy.
 
Reactions: Touche and Dazl1212

Dazl1212

Ripley, strong independent woman who don't no man
May 16, 2013
19,392
5,788
UK
Shapiro is actually a big target of the alt-right. He gets death threats constantly, and pays a fuck ton for security for himself and his family because of that fact.
I have heard this, I just find the way he talks to be irritating so I don't pay much attention to him.

Just to clarify my earlier post, I don't subscribe to the idea that some races are less intelligent than others. But evidently there are genetic differences, mainly due to the environment different races/ethnicities spent in isolation from others.
 

Bachafach

Antifa
Jul 2, 2019
975
264
24
Varaždin, Croatia
Scientific racism? There are differences between races that's a fact
Race is a social construct for which we cant define accurately. The biological difference between local populations of people is too varied.

Again hiararchys are seen in practically every human civilization, so yeah I'd say they are pretty natural.
There have been plenty of groups throughout history that have functioned without a hierarchy. Even in societies such as the plains indians or mongolians hierarchy was extremely fluid. If hierarchies were natural why do societies and civilizations fall with such regularity? Why are humans seemingly predisposed to not obey orders. Why do governments have to force people to conform? Hell most ancient societies spent a considerable amount of time just getting kids to listen to their parents.

It gets even more muddied when you add a racial aspect into it eh?


Nothing I have seen from any of these guys pushes people towards Nazism. Isn't Shapiro Jewish?
They arent Nazis. Id compare them to the eugenicists and race realists who influenced the Nazis though
 

Bachafach

Antifa
Jul 2, 2019
975
264
24
Varaždin, Croatia
I did. And seeing fake laughing from people who think it's a valid criticism to say "He doesn't speak/read Arabic" in regards to his take on Islam cwassums up their bias perfectly. Most of Islamic world doesn't speak or read Arabic either. :lol:

I'd want to see Harris' entire speech on the issue rather than a carefully selected excerpt. Assuming that excerpt is accurate, he is indeed being a hypocrite, but all that hypocrisy shows is his obsession over religion, not a defence of white supremacy.
Thats alot of dancing, gonna call you Ali. You are the greatest.
 
Dec 7, 2016
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I agree, I'm sure there are many racists who'd be foaming at the mouth if they read a headline of "black people have lower IQs than whites". For that reason, I can understand why it's a taboo subject and why it'll never be fully supported by the scientific community. I don't think someone like Harris is racist for objectively looking at the facts and saying that there might be some validity to it.

Ultimately, people are always going to be fundamentally the same regardless of any of these differences. I'm not as strong as northern Europeans, not as clever as east Asians, not as athletic as west Africans...so what? You can get by in life with these minor differences, it makes no tangible difference to a persons life.

We know what side does not want that topic studied. Why is that? If they thought the research showed that everyone is equal they would be happy to have the topic researched.
 
Dec 7, 2016
3,401
946
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I agree, I'm sure there are many racists who'd be foaming at the mouth if they read a headline of "black people have lower IQs than whites". For that reason, I can understand why it's a taboo subject and why it'll never be fully supported by the scientific community. I don't think someone like Harris is racist for objectively looking at the facts and saying that there might be some validity to it.

Ultimately, people are always going to be fundamentally the same regardless of any of these differences. I'm not as strong as northern Europeans, not as clever as east Asians, not as athletic as west Africans...so what? You can get by in life with these minor differences, it makes no tangible difference to a persons life.

It does explain why some groups or races lag behind other groups of races as a whole. It should be studied out in the open ( again we know who doesn't want that and why ) and used to explain the way things are.