Been Shapiro on BBC

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The provision for military spending is taxation. It's identical to caring for citizens. It says general welfare. Taxes can be collected for general welfare.

So, run me through how health is not part of general welfare. :lol:

Well the fact that basically nobody in the last 250 years has tried to make that argument is a start. Again if you want to open that up than there is no stopping it.

It has been decided that it is referencing military defense.
 

Haggis

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No, I wouldn't lose it. Protecting citizens from injury and disease is protection. Nothing in the constitution says taxation for roads is valid. Nothing in the constitution discusses taxation for military spending.

It's a contradiction. Protecting citizens is not explicitly defined as protecting them solely from foreign invaders.
Nothing in the Constitution even discusses a permanent standing army, so far as I am aware. IIRC, it only talks about Congressional appropriations for military spending to be limited to a span of no more than two years. A far cry from the military-industrial, nation-"building" behemoth of today.

:hat
 
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Icemmann

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This is an emotional argument. Technically Shirpiro is correct obviously. You can argue about how much should be spend on defense but not that the gov't job is to pay for the military. How much is always debated.

I will listen to the health care debate when you give some solutions for the people who won't work. I went through this before on another thread and so no solutions. People don't want to pay for 20 million people ( estimate and the number will grow ) who don't want to work but want to be taken care of by other people's money and work.
People who bust their ass to but good insurance also don't want their level of insurance decreased so others who don't want to bust their asses can have the same insurance.
The tax payers already pay for the unemployed and uninsured who take themselves to the ER to get treated for anything.

It would make more sense to have a single payer system so they're not going to the ER for stupid shit and running up ridiculous hospital bills that the government ends up paying, when they could have just went to a stupid neighborhood walk in clinic.
 

Icemmann

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How does a single payer healthcare system decrease insurance coverage for people who "buy" "good" insurance?

Everyone is covered by nhs at a minimum, correct?

People who have the means can purchase their own "premium" insurance, yes?
 
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The tax payers already pay for the unemployed and uninsured who take themselves to the ER to get treated for anything.

It would make more sense to have a single payer system so they're not going to the ER for stupid shit and running up ridiculous hospital bills that the government ends up paying, when they could have just went to a stupid neighborhood walk in clinic.
I don't think the Math shows that and you would have to take a lot of things into account. I know a lot of people who work just because they want to buy decent healthcare. If they got healthcare for free they would quit working and they would then get free healthcare.

I have the solution to this problem but nobody ever listens.
 
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How does a single payer healthcare system decrease insurance coverage for people who "buy" "good" insurance?

Everyone is covered by nhs at a minimum, correct?

People who have the means can purchase their own "premium" insurance, yes?

So you are going to pay for others free health care and also but a plan for yourself? How many people will do that? Most people will be forced to go on gov't health care and their health care will not be nearlya s good.
 

Icemmann

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I don't think the Math shows that and you would have to take a lot of things into account. I know a lot of people who work just because they want to buy decent healthcare. If they got healthcare for free they would quit working and they would then get free healthcare.

I have the solution to this problem but nobody ever listens.
Yeah? Why don't they just quit working so when they need medical attention they can just go to the ER? If they have no income they can't be billed, it gets paid for by the state.
 

Haggis

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So you are going to pay for others free health care and also but a plan for yourself? How many people will do that? Most people will be forced to go on gov't health care and their health care will not be nearlya s good.
Is everybody pitching in to help finance the collective always and automatically a punishment for you?

I don't have kids. Are you offended that I have to contribute to schools for other people's kids?

My house has never burned down, and I've never had to be cut out of a wrecked car. Are you offended that I help pay for the fire service?

:hat
 

Icemmann

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So you are going to pay for others free health care and also but a plan for yourself? How many people will do that? Most people will be forced to go on gov't health care and their health care will not be nearlya s good.
How the fuck do you figure that? We already get taxed out the ass and pay more than any other country for healthcare. Only difference is that in other countries people don't go fucking bankrupt because of medical bills.
 
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Is everybody pitching in to help finance the collective always and automatically a punishment for you?

I don't have kids. Are you offended that I have to contribute to schools for other people's kids?

My house has never burned down, and I've never had to be cut out of a wrecked car. Are you offended that I help pay for the fire service?

:hat

I still don't see a solution about the 20 million people who don't want to work. You and people like you always ignore that huge problem. IF you start to hand people things less and less people will work.
 
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How the fuck do you figure that? We already get taxed out the ass and pay more than any other country for healthcare. Only difference is that in other countries people don't go fucking bankrupt because of medical bills.

You will be taxed more obviously. What ever you pay now will increase.
 

Icemmann

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I still don't see a solution about the 20 million people who don't want to work. You and people like you always ignore that huge problem. IF you start to hand people things less and less people will work.
You simple fuck.


THEY PAY ZERO FOR MEDICAL CARE, WE ALREADY PAY FOR THEM. WE'D PAY LESS IF THEY COULD GO TO CLINICS INSTEAD OF THE ER. Even if you triple that and make it so now it's 60 million who now "quit working" cause they magically got insurance that they already fucking would have had if they were homeless, it would still be cheaper.


Your fucking argument is absurd. People are not going to fucking quit working en masse because they have access to healthcare. Because I'm assuming they like having a place to live and eating food you fucking buffoon.
 

Haggis

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I still don't see a solution about the 20 million people who don't want to work. You and people like you always ignore that huge problem. IF you start to hand people things less and less people will work.


:hat
 

Haggis

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Norwegian unemployment rate. A country where the government basically pays for everything cradle to grave, and you pretty much go to work to get pocket money.



Highest level since 1980, according to that graph, was 6%. US unemployment rate was almost double that earlier this decade.

:hat
 

Haggis

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I still don't see a solution about the 20 million people who don't want to work. You and people like you always ignore that huge problem. IF you start to hand people things less and less people will work.
I've never needed the fire brigade. Why the fuck should I pay for every other bastard to use them? It would be better if I got into a car crash, they show up and present me a bill that I have to sign before they cut me out of the wreck. :bart

:hat
 
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Norwegian unemployment rate. A country where the government basically pays for everything cradle to grave, and you pretty much go to work to get pocket money.



Highest level since 1980, according to that graph, was 6%. US unemployment rate was almost double that earlier this decade.

:hat

Different country different culture.
 
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You simple fuck.


THEY PAY ZERO FOR MEDICAL CARE, WE ALREADY PAY FOR THEM. WE'D PAY LESS IF THEY COULD GO TO CLINICS INSTEAD OF THE ER. Even if you triple that and make it so now it's 60 million who now "quit working" cause they magically got insurance that they already fucking would have had if they were homeless, it would still be cheaper.


Your fucking argument is absurd. People are not going to fucking quit working en masse because they have access to healthcare. Because I'm assuming they like having a place to live and eating food you fucking buffoon.

The numbers don't work out like you say. If you think that you taxes would not go up if free health care if given out you are a fool. And again the health care fr the people who actually pay in will not be as good.
 

Haggis

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Different country different culture.
Mmmmm-hmmmmm.

If it's so obvious that universal healthcare leads directly to masses of people refusing to work - then how come every Western country with a similar GDP/standard of living and universal healthcare, has unemployment rates very comparable and in some cases lower than yours?

:hat
 
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Mmmmm-hmmmmm.

If it's so obvious that universal healthcare leads directly to masses of people refusing to work - then how come every Western country with a similar GDP/standard of living and universal healthcare, has unemployment rates very comparable and in some cases lower than yours?

:hat
Because the first thing a reputable employer will do is check your medical history or ask for an examination.
If you can’t afford a doctor you can’t afford a job.