Besides Holyfield and Lewis, is there anyone else that you would have favored to have beaten Tyson in late 1996?

tommygun711

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That's a really damn good list. I actually agree with all of your top 9 being in the top 10. I'd put Holmes in the bottom half of the top 10 and I'd rate Marciano a little higher, those are the only 2 major differences I'd put up.

  1. Ali
  2. Louis
  3. Foreman
  4. Holyfield
  5. Tyson
  6. Marciano
  7. Frazier
  8. Lewis
  9. Holmes
  10. Bowe
I like that list a lot. Bowe being ranked in the top 10 based off of his head to head ability? Or mostly just his win over a prime holyfield? Also, what makes you rank Marciano over Frazier.
 
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I like that list a lot. Bowe being ranked in the top 10 based off of his head to head ability? Or mostly just his win over a prime holyfield? Also, what makes you rank Marciano over Frazier.
I put Bowe in there mostly based on his H2H ability. The guy was a freak of nature. A guy that big with hands that fast who could fight on the inside like that is something else. I also put him in there based on the whole Holyfield trilogy. He also beat some good fighters with ease. I can't rate him any higher than that because he ruined his career with his eating habits and he ducked Lennox Lewis.

Marciano and Frazier were basically the same kind of fighter but I give Marciano the edge because of his durability. It's close.
 
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tommygun711

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Marciano and Frazier were basically the same kind of fighter but I give Marciano the edge because of his durability. It's close.
So is your list mostly based off of resume and their careers, or head to head? because to me Frazier's win over Ali probably trumps Rockys best wins.
 

Deckard

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Many fighters would have beaten him in 96 imo, I really don't rate post prison tyson at all. he had 5 good rounds in him at best, lost all his dynamism, he was just a really hard and fast puncher, but even then he wasn't really punching with all that great combos. Oliver McCall and ray Mercer would have beaten him, Bowe too. I think 96 Golota wins too.
 
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So is your list mostly based off of resume and their careers, or head to head? because to me Frazier's win over Ali probably trumps Rockys best wins.
It's basically a mix of everything. I take everything in to account. Frazier did have the best win between the two fighters which is why I rate it close. The main mark against Frazier to me is both of his losses to Foreman. It's not the fact that he lost to Foreman, it's that fact that both fights were so easy for Foreman. If Frazier had been competitive in 1 of those 2 fights, I would rank Frazier over Marciano. Like if in the 1st or 2nd fight he got KO'd but it was more of a war, I would see it differently. Btw, it's the same reason why I don't rank Floyd Patterson as high as most people. It's not the fact that he lost to Liston, it's the fact that both times he got destroyed and Patterson was in his prime.
 
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Many fighters would have beaten him in 96 imo, I really don't rate post prison tyson at all. he had 5 good rounds in him at best, lost all his dynamism, he was just a really hard and fast puncher, but even then he wasn't really punching with all that great combos. Oliver McCall and ray Mercer would have beaten him, Bowe too. I think 96 Golota wins too.
I know there's the phrase, "styles make fights" but how is McCall going to beat him when he couldn't even beat Bruno and Tyson slaughtered Bruno right after that. McCall also barely beat an over the hill Larry Holmes.

96 Golota beats him? Golota would have shit his pants at fighting 1996 Tyson. He shit his pants at having to fight 2000 Tyson who was farther gone at that point.
 
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Setanta

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Btw, that version of Larry Holmes would have kicked the shit out of any heavyweight right now outside of the big 3. He would have jabbed Ruiz's and White's face off.
I don't think so.

Not that version of Holmes.

Usyk would out point him and Povetkin would stop him.

Probably others too.
 
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I'm trying to think. Keep in mind, I'm talking Tyson that fought Holyfield the first time and was coming off the Seldon fight. Not anything before that post-prison who would have been rustier and not after he lost his mind and started smoking weed after the 2nd Holyfield fight.

I think Tyson would have squashed the fading Bowe that fought Golota and Golota himself. David Tua would have been an interesting fight as would have Ray Mercer. I can't think of any fighter that would have had a better than 50-50 shot though.
Tua, Foreman, Bowe, Ibabuchi.
 
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Deckard

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I know there's the phrase, "styles make fights" but how is McCall going to beat him when he couldn't even beat Bruno and Tyson slaughtered Bruno right after that. McCall also barely beat an over the hill Larry Holmes.

96 Golota beats him? Golota would have shit his pants at fighting 1996 Tyson. He shit his pants at having to fight 2000 Tyson who was farther gone at that point.
He beats him n
I know there's the phrase, "styles make fights" but how is McCall going to beat him when he couldn't even beat Bruno and Tyson slaughtered Bruno right after that. McCall also barely beat an over the hill Larry Holmes.

96 Golota beats him? Golota would have shit his pants at fighting 1996 Tyson. He shit his pants at having to fight 2000 Tyson who was farther gone at that point.
I think by taking tyson past the 5th round, and narrowly outpointing him. the longer a fight went on post prison, tyson would just load up on one or two head punches, hell even before prison look at his ruddock fights, the head movement, dynamic fast foot movement and body-head combos had gone, he was a a come forward fighter looking for hail mary knock out punches.
Tyson post prison was very well cultivated fighter, look at who he thought other than tyson and lewis, pretty much total bums, even nielsen was outpointing him until he landed imo a lucky-ish punch.
I think tyson definetely loses to Lewis in 96 as well.
 
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He beats him n


I think by taking tyson past the 5th round, and narrowly outpointing him. the longer a fight went on post prison, tyson would just load up on one or two head punches, hell even before prison look at his ruddock fights, the head movement, dynamic fast foot movement and body-head combos had gone, he was a a come forward fighter looking for hail mary knock out punches.
Tyson post prison was very well cultivated fighter, look at who he thought other than tyson and lewis, pretty much total bums, even nielsen was outpointing him until he landed imo a lucky-ish punch.
I think tyson definetely loses to Lewis in 96 as well.
I was only talking about just the post prison Tyson years before the ear biting suspension when he was still fast. There’s a big difference in how fast he was in ‘96 than he was any time from ‘99 on. Some of that had to do with age. Fighters that rely on speed start to fade out in their early 30s. Tyson was 29 for Bruno 2 and 30 for both Holyfield fights.

I agree that Lewis would have beat him in 1996. I think Tyson would have piled up the points in the earlier rounds against McCall, tired more in the later rounds but still would have won a decision. If Bruno could pull that off for 12 rounds in a title fight, I’m sure Tyson would have in ‘96.
 
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tommygun711

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It's basically a mix of everything. I take everything in to account. Frazier did have the best win between the two fighters which is why I rate it close. The main mark against Frazier to me is both of his losses to Foreman. It's not the fact that he lost to Foreman, it's that fact that both fights were so easy for Foreman. If Frazier had been competitive in 1 of those 2 fights, I would rank Frazier over Marciano. Like if in the 1st or 2nd fight he got KO'd but it was more of a war, I would see it differently. Btw, it's the same reason why I don't rank Floyd Patterson as high as most people. It's not the fact that he lost to Liston, it's the fact that both times he got destroyed and Patterson was in his prime.
Hm. yeah I agree that the Foreman losses definitely damage the legacy of Joe Frazier, he got dominated in both fights by a great fighter, but lets be honest the same thing would have happened to Rocky if he had fought a prime Foreman. Rocky didn't face the same level of competition as Frazier. Not even close, Frazier fought guys like Jerry Quarry (who could have been champion in a different era) Jimmy Ellis, Buster Mathis, Oscar Bonavena, Joe Bugner, Eddie Machen, Bob Foster, Doug Jones and George Chuvalo, truthfully his resume outside of his Ali victory has some depth to it. I think when it comes to Floyd Patterson and Joe Frazier they simply faced bigger guys in Liston and Foreman, big punchers with stylistic advantages..

On the other hand, I would argue that Marciano's resume isn't as good, honestly. People talk about Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore and Walcott, and they were all great fighters but with the exception of Walcott, they weren't at their prime when Marciano defeated them. Then you have guys like LaStarza, Cockell, Savold, and Rex Layne, solid guys for their time but probably not better than the guys that Frazier defeated.

I don't like to discredit Rocky like this but to me Frazier is a better fighter head to head than Rocky and likely has the better resume.
 
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This is pretty accurate. I really got into boxing through Tyson, and at a time thought “a prime Tyson” was the best heavyweight to ever live.
After a few decades following boxing I still rate him highly at his best, one of boxing’s biggest losses is that he didn’t fight Holyfield in 91 and we lost that version of Tyson, I’m not saying he would have won, but it would have been a different fight if you ask me, Tyson’s stamina went to shit post prison.
 
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