Fights where it all went wrong for a fighter.

[Trail]

Jersey Joe Walcott vs Rocky Marciano. Walcott ahead on all cards going into the 13th round and he gets caught by a vicious right by Rocky and crumbles to the canvas with his left arm tangled up in the middle rope holding him up on his knees---------then face plants to the canvas as gravity pulls his unconscious body to the mat.

In the rematch, it didn't get any better for Jersey Joe as he got KO'd much quicker the second time around, hitting the canvas in round 1 and failing to beat the count.

ETA: Big John Tate vs Mike Weaver in 80. Weaver, the smaller man by 25 lbs. and a few inches shorter than Tate was behind on all cards heading into the 15th round. He pinned Tate against the ropes and unleashed a hard, perfectly thrown left hook that caught Tate on the side of the head and Tate looked like an ebony tree and he simply hinged at the feet and fell straight to the canvas stiff as a board. Another fight where the ref could have counted him out with a sun dial. The KO came at 2:15 of the last round.

Just to chuck this debate off for a second, Gumbo, are there any reasons to suggest Marciano's reign was in a time when the HW division wasn't really that good?

Please forgive me, my HW knowledge isn't that great. I'm more into little Mexicans and Cubans murdering each other.

 

[craigseventy]

Not sure if this counts or if it has been mentioned but the one where the French guy beat Sam maxwell every round, knocked him down a few times, spent the entire fight showboating and then got knocked out with ten seconds lest to go because he thought he was Roy Jones

 

[Trail]

Not sure if this counts or if it has been mentioned but the one where the French guy beat Sam maxwell every round, knocked him down a few times, spent the entire fight showboating and then got knocked out with ten seconds lest to go because he thought he was Roy Jones

I'm just having another look at that, Craig. I remember it first time out. No-one should think they're Roy Jones, they aren't, no-one is. Good shout by the way, very good shout.

 

[gumbo2176]

Just to chuck this debate off for a second, Gumbo, are there any reasons to suggest Marciano's reign was in a time when the HW division wasn't really that good?

Please forgive me, my HW knowledge isn't that great. I'm more into little Mexicans and Cubans murdering each other.

People have said Rocky fought the "Bum Of The Month Club" in his career and all he could do was face the opposition placed in front of him at the time.

He didn't duck anyone but the "Who's Who" on his record were all pretty much long time campaigners. His first real test as far as I'm concerned was against the aging-------at 37 years old-----Joe Louis who's record at the time of the fight was 66-2-0 and had been fighting for 17 years and lost by KO to Rocky. This was Louis's last fight as a pro.

He also took on Ezzard Charles with an 85-10-1 record and defeated him twice, once by UD and then KO.

He fought Jersey Joe Walcott for the title in 52 and after being behind on all cards, KO'd Walcott late to gain the title. They fought again and Rocky made quick work of him by KO in the first round. Jersey Joe was 38 in their first meeting. Rocky was 29 and in his physical prime.

His last fight was against the great Archie Moore who at the time was 41 years old with Rocky being 32. Archie's record at the time was 149-19-8 and he was KO'd in 9 by Rocky.

Archie Moore went on to campaign until 1963, a clear 8 years past the Marciano fight and ended his career with a record of 186-23-10.

So the detractors have ammunition to throw water on Rocky's career, but in every weight division in boxing, there's years where talent is absolutely great and times when it's not so great and all the fighter can do is face opponents they are matched against.

Fight fans who witnessed the hey day of Duran, Hagler, Leonard and Hearns in the lighter weights and Frazier, Norton, Shavers, Ali, Foreman and a host of other heavyweights all beating crap out of each other in the 60's-80's can appreciate when the talent pool is deep.

 

[Trail]

People have said Rocky fought the "Bum Of The Month Club" in his career and all he could do was face the opposition placed in front of him at the time.

He didn't duck anyone but the "Who's Who" on his record were all pretty much long time campaigners. His first real test as far as I'm concerned was against the aging-------at 37 years old-----Joe Louis who's record at the time of the fight was 66-2-0 and had been fighting for 17 years and lost by KO to Rocky. This was Louis's last fight as a pro.

He also took on Ezzard Charles with an 85-10-1 record and defeated him twice, once by UD and then KO.

He fought Jersey Joe Walcott for the title in 52 and after being behind on all cards, KO'd Walcott late to gain the title. They fought again and Rocky made quick work of him by KO in the first round. Jersey Joe was 38 in their first meeting. Rocky was 29 and in his physical prime.

His last fight was against the great Archie Moore who at the time was 41 years old with Rocky being 32. Archie's record at the time was 149-19-8 and he was KO'd in 9 by Rocky.

Archie Moore went on to campaign until 1963, a clear 8 years past the Marciano fight and ended his career with a record of 186-23-10.

So the detractors have ammunition to throw water on Rocky's career, but in every weight division in boxing, there's years where talent is absolutely great and times when it's not so great and all the fighter can do is face opponents they are matched against.

Fight fans who witnessed the hey day of Duran, Hagler, Leonard and Hearns in the lighter weights and Frazier, Norton, Shavers, Ali, Foreman and a host of other heavyweights all beating crap out of each other in the 60's-80's can appreciate when the talent pool is deep.

People have said Rocky fought the "Bum Of The Month Club" in his career and all he could do was face the opposition placed in front of him at the time.

He didn't duck anyone but the "Who's Who" on his record were all pretty much long time campaigners. His first real test as far as I'm concerned was against the aging-------at 37 years old-----Joe Louis who's record at the time of the fight was 66-2-0 and had been fighting for 17 years and lost by KO to Rocky. This was Louis's last fight as a pro.

He also took on Ezzard Charles with an 85-10-1 record and defeated him twice, once by UD and then KO.

He fought Jersey Joe Walcott for the title in 52 and after being behind on all cards, KO'd Walcott late to gain the title. They fought again and Rocky made quick work of him by KO in the first round. Jersey Joe was 38 in their first meeting. Rocky was 29 and in his physical prime.

His last fight was against the great Archie Moore who at the time was 41 years old with Rocky being 32. Archie's record at the time was 149-19-8 and he was KO'd in 9 by Rocky.

Archie Moore went on to campaign until 1963, a clear 8 years past the Marciano fight and ended his career with a record of 186-23-10.

So the detractors have ammunition to throw water on Rocky's career, but in every weight division in boxing, there's years where talent is absolutely great and times when it's not so great and all the fighter can do is face opponents they are matched against.

Fight fans who witnessed the hey day of Duran, Hagler, Leonard and Hearns in the lighter weights and Frazier, Norton, Shavers, Ali, Foreman and a host of other heavyweights all beating crap out of each other in the 60's-80's can appreciate when the talent pool is deep.

Your boxing knowledge supercedes mine. I didn't know half of that,

 

[gumbo2176]

Your boxing knowledge supercedes mine. I didn't know half of that,

Believe me, this wasn't pulled straight from my memory banks. I knew Rocky faced the guys mentioned and also knew in what order he faced them, but a simple search told me their ages and records at the time of their fights with Rocky.

I was born the year Rocky won the heavyweight title against Jersey Joe in 52 and after he retired I saw film of some of his better fights as they showed them on TV, but with the advent of the internet and film archives, you can watch many of his fights, especially the ones from Joe Louis onward when he was the reigning champion.

Rocky never fought above 193 in his career, often going as low as the upper 170 lb. range with the majority of his fights seeing him weighing in the mid to upper 180's. He would be woefully undersized in todays heavyweight division and likely not fair too well going against guys 240 and up with 6-8 inch advantages in height.

Look at what happened to Floyd Patterson, the then heavyweight champion when he faced Sonny Liston, a true heavyweight with brutal power. Floyd was destroyed in that fight and in the rematch soon after, both by KO in the first round. Size and weight advantages are often very telling in that division.

On a more recent note, look how easily Tyson Fury took out Deontay Wilder in their rematch. He just decided to use his height and weight to his advantage and maul the smaller opponent into submission. Once he saw he could take Wilder's best shot in their first fight and get off the canvas, he changed his game plan to use his advantages and it worked to a tee.

 

[Trail]

We need to have a look at Barry McGuigan - Steve Cruz.

It wasn't so much Barry's fault (Barney sent him out there in the middle of the Nevada desert), Fernando Sosa got injured prior to this, so Stevie stepped in.

Barry was never the same afterwards.

 

[gumbo2176]

We need to have a look at Barry McGuigan - Steve Cruz.

It wasn't so much Barry's fault (Barney sent him out there in the middle of the Nevada desert), Fernando Sosa got injured prior to this, so Stevie stepped in.

Barry was never the same afterwards.

I checked it out on BoxRec and will look at the fight a bit later as I've got errands to run. But it did state that the temperature at the time the fight began was 110 degrees F. which is just over 43 degrees C. I can't imagine doing all that in that amount of heat.

 

[gumbo2176]

We need to have a look at Barry McGuigan - Steve Cruz.

It wasn't so much Barry's fault (Barney sent him out there in the middle of the Nevada desert), Fernando Sosa got injured prior to this, so Stevie stepped in.

Barry was never the same afterwards.

Watched the video and that was a hell of a pace for being outdoors in the heat of Nevada in June.

Tough loss and the resulting lawsuit by Barney Eastwood, who won a libel suit against Barry and the TV station that aired an interview where Barry claimed he was sent out to fight with an ankle and ear injury that hurt his chances in that fight.

Barney was awarded $775K in 92 and Barry and the station were also ordered to pay all legal costs that came to $1.4 million dollars.

 

[Trail]

Watched the video and that was a hell of a pace for being outdoors in the heat of Nevada in June.

Tough loss and the resulting lawsuit by Barney Eastwood, who won a libel suit against Barry and the TV station that aired an interview where Barry claimed he was sent out to fight with an ankle and ear injury that hurt his chances in that fight.

Barney was awarded $775K in 92 and Barry and the station were also ordered to pay all legal costs that came to $1.4 million dollars.

Your boxing knowledge is exemplary. I have nothing more to say.

I want Gumbo as King, please.