Hey smart guys, how do we fix the violent crime problem in the USA?

[steviebruno]

How are you even going to know who owns an AR/AK platform? Are you going to make gun owners in all 50 states register their firearms first?

Absolutely. People that are using the guns for sport, hunting, and sheep herding would obviously have no problem registering their weapons. It would be far easier, then, to root out the people collecting such weapons for nefarious purposes.

 

[Haggis]

Coyotes don't attack people, they attack livestock and frequently enough, pets in rural areas. Wolves do the same. I'm not going to begrudge a rancher protecting his property with the most effective tool, and if that's a .223 as opposed to a bolt action .270, so be it. I don't own any guns myself. Guns are a tool, and not one I currently have a use for. When I stopped working construction I put my tools in the shed. Same thing with firearms for me.

So livestock and pets are worth Sandy Hook, Aurora, Parklands, El Paso, Las Vegas, Pulse nightclub, etc etc etc. Etc etc etc etc etc.......

Even though other guns that an untrained 19 year old can't murder 9 people in 30 seconds with, can do that job just as well.

And as fucked up and horrific as your problem with regular mass shootings using semiautos is........... it's still not NEARLY the deadliest problem with your gun culture.

Why not just concede that there is no rational defence for having your gun laws as they are? That it has been a disaster of an experiment?

 

[Kolya]

Absolutely. People that are using the guns for sport, hunting, and sheep herding would obviously have no problem registering their weapons. It would be far easier, then, to root out the people collecting such weapons for nefarious purposes.

 

[steviebruno]

Hard work would be required to solve this problem, and I'd rather a group of silly gun nuts die than someone's child on a school campus.

That's how I would meet the problem if it was up to me. You declare war on my schools, malls, movie theaters, etc. and you DIE. Just like that.

First Civil War lasted four years. This one wouldn't last four weeks.

 

[Kolya]

So livestock and pets are worth Sandy Hook, Aurora, Parklands, El Paso, Las Vegas, Pulse nightclub, etc etc etc. Etc etc etc etc etc.......

Even though other guns that an untrained 19 year old can't murder 9 people in 30 seconds with, can do that job just as well.

And as fucked up and horrific as your problem with regular mass shootings using semiautos is........... it's still not NEARLY the deadliest problem with your gun culture.

Why not just concede that there is no rational defence for having your gun laws as they are? That it has been a disaster of an experiment?

I'm from a state that has extremely strict gun laws, Maryland. Can't have an external magazine of more than 10 rounds, strict laws on the purchase of handguns and "assault weapons." Does absolutely nothing to curb the violent crime rate in Baltimore. California has similarly strict laws. A motorist mirked a CHP officer and critically wounded two others yesterday.

The issue is much more complex and multifaceted than a simple "ARs bad!" That narrative is driven by ignorance.

 

[Haggis]

Coyotes don't attack people, they attack livestock and frequently enough, pets in rural areas. Wolves do the same. I'm not going to begrudge a rancher protecting his property with the most effective tool, and if that's a .223 as opposed to a bolt action .270, so be it. I don't own any guns myself. Guns are a tool, and not one I currently have a use for. When I stopped working construction I put my tools in the shed. Same thing with firearms for me.

Also, 1) I didn't say coyotes attacked people, I asked (somewhat facetiously) how many die by AR-15 fire - coyotes, or innocent bystanders?

And 2) YOU may have put your guns away. Because you're a responsible adult. Many aren't. They will use those weapons to kill themselves (gun ownership goes up, suicides go up), their family members (keeping a gun in the house makes every person in that house more likely to die by gunshot, whether it be by accident, suicide or murder), or random strangers (no developed nation on the planet has anything close to the mass shooting problem that you guys do.)

The justifications don't add up. Why not just admit that when the Second Amendment was ratified in the age of muskets, the Founding Fathers simply didn't anticipate the kind of firepower that any random asshole could get his hands on with a week's wages in the 21st Century?

I mean, is this really what they had in mind? Or would they be fucking horrified at what it has turned into - not only the deaths, but the power the gun lobby holds on Washington?

 

[Kolya]

Hard work would be required to solve this problem, and I'd rather a group of silly gun nuts die than someone's child on a school campus.

That's how I would meet the problem if it was up to me. You declare war on my schools, malls, movie theaters, etc. and you DIE. Just like that.

First Civil War lasted four years. This one wouldn't last four weeks.

And who's going to fight it, you? You're sure as shit not going to get the military to fight it for you. I'm pretty fucking liberal and if the government told me to register my weapons, my response would be to tell them to eat my ass. The same way I would if there was a push to remove HIPAA and create a mental health registry. The same way that if the government ever tried to get people to register their religions, I'd object.

 

[steviebruno]

And who's going to fight it, you? You're sure as shit not going to get the military to fight it for you. I'm pretty fucking liberal and if the government told me to register my weapons, my response would be to tell them to eat my ass. The same way I would if there was a push to remove HIPAA and create a mental health registry. The same way that if the government ever tried to get people to register their religions, I'd object.

Why wouldn't you want your weapons registered?

 

[Kolya]

Why wouldn't you want your weapons registered?

Because it's none of the government's fucking business what I own.

 

[Haggis]

I'm from a state that has extremely strict gun laws, Maryland. Can't have an external magazine of more than 10 rounds, strict laws on the purchase of handguns and "assault weapons." Does absolutely nothing to curb the violent crime rate in Baltimore. California has similarly strict laws. A motorist mirked a CHP officer and critically wounded two others yesterday.

The issue is much more complex and multifaceted than a simple "ARs bad!" That narrative is driven by ignorance.

1) Yeah, the "my state has gun laws, we still have gun crime!" argument isn't worth shit. As you know damned well. You are smarter than that, that is a Joe E or Clarence-level argument.



2) And it's hardly "ignorance" to say that having millions and millions of AR-15 in civilian hands with virtually no screening or oversight at all, is a bad idea. Especially when the counter argument is that they're worth it because coyotes kill sheep and pets, and so AR-15’s for everybody! Even 19 year old psychopaths who aren't considered legally responsible enough to buy a beer or gamble their own money at a casino yet!

 

[steviebruno]

Because it's none of the government's fucking business what I own.

You can go out in a forest and start shootin' automatic weapons, but the government shouldn't know who could potentially be doing the shootin'?

What is an acceptable number of dead kids required for you to reconsider this point of view?

 

[Kolya]

1) Yeah, the "my state has gun laws, we still have gun crime!" argument isn't worth shit. As you know damned well. You are smarter than that, that is a Joe E or Clarence-level argument.



2) And it's hardly "ignorance" to say that having millions and millions of AR-15 in civilian hands with virtually no screening at all, is bad. Especially when the counter argument is that they're worth it because coyotes kill sheep and pets, and so AR-15’s for everybody! Even 19 year old psychopaths who aren't considered legally responsible enough to buy a beer or gamble their own money at a casino yet!

Your first point is reinforcing my point. A federal level ban isn't going to work, "assault weapons" have been in circulation for nearly 30 years. You're not going to remove them and at this point, you're addressing a symptom rather than the disease.

I'll let you in on a secret. The AR isn't a military grade weapon. I always come back to this point: if my patrol had been armed with ARs during the worst firefight I was in, we'd all be fucking dead. This boils down to an issue of individual rights and liberty for me. I don't own guns because 1. I don't need them, and 2. I've been down some dark roads before and I know what the correlation between gun ownership and suicide are. I'm also not going to tell vast swathes of this country what they can do, or how to protect their interests. I know you fancy yourself an expert, but you know somewhere between jack and shit about the United States, my dude.

 

[Kolya]

You can go out in a forest and start shootin' automatic weapons, but the government shouldn't know who could potentially be doing the shootin'?

What is an acceptable number of dead kids required for you to reconsider this point of view?

I can't own automatic weapons. I don't have a Class 3 permit and they're stupidly expensive and hard to obtain.

Let me just make it clear, I don't like ARs. They're not a firearm I would personally own. I'm also not scared of them. I'm a realist. They're here, they're not going anywhere. There's a sickness in the heart of this country, in what American culture has become, and until that's addressed people will always be willing to kill other people. I'd like to see further reforms of our gun laws, along the lines of the Lautenberg amendment. But talking about things like confiscation is a nonstarter and does nothing to further a dialogue on how to address what happens in the US.

 

[steviebruno]

I can't own automatic weapons. I don't have a Class 3 permit and they're stupidly expensive and hard to obtain.

Let me just make it clear, I don't like ARs. They're not a firearm I would personally own. I'm also not scared of them. I'm a realist. They're here, they're not going anywhere. There's a sickness in the heart of this country, in what American culture has become, and until that's addressed people will always be willing to kill other people. I'd like to see further reforms of our gun laws, along the lines of the Lautenberg amendment. But talking about things like confiscation is a nonstarter and does nothing to further a dialogue on how to address what happens in the US.

... So it's easier to address an unidentified sickness in America than it would be to take away the guns... How should we start?

 

[Haggis]

Your first point is reinforcing my point. A federal level ban isn't going to work, "assault weapons" have been in circulation for nearly 30 years. You're not going to remove them and at this point, you're addressing a symptom rather than the disease.

What is the symptom, that affects the US very badly but somehow doesn't have anything close to the same effect anywhere else in the developed world?

I'll let you in on a secret. The AR isn't a military grade weapon. I always come back to this point: if my patrol had been armed with ARs during the worst firefight I was in, we'd all be fucking dead.

They do just fine in Wal-Mart or Parkland or Las Vegas, though. In those places, it was everybody else who wound up dead.

This boils down to an issue of individual rights and liberty for me.

Are you in favour of drivers licences?

I take it you would have an issue with a drunk 12 year old spoiled rich kid driving down the road at 100mph with half a dozen loaded AR-15s in the front seat?

I don't own guns because 1. I don't need them, and 2. I've been down some dark roads before and I know what the correlation between gun ownership and suicide are.

Yep.

I'm not even against a blanket ban on gun ownership. Far from it.

I'm also not going to tell vast swathes of this country what they can do, or how to protect their interests. I know you fancy yourself an expert, but you know somewhere between jack and shit about the United States, my dude.

I don't fancy myself an expert. At all.

Don't exactly have to be an expert to figure out that you guys have gotten gun ownership very, VERY wrong.

 

[Kolya]

... So it's easier to address an unidentified sickness in America than it would be to take away the guns... How should we start?

It legitimately would be. A lot of fucking people will die if you start trying to "take away guns." More than that, who's going to do it? Police? The military? Any blanket ban will be struck down by the SCOTUS. Ordering the military to do it is an unlawful order in more ways than one. Come up with an actual idea that would work and come back to me.

 

[steviebruno]

It legitimately would be. A lot of fucking people will die if you start trying to "take away guns." More than that, who's going to do it? Police? The military? Any blanket ban will be struck down by the SCOTUS. Ordering the military to do it is an unlawful order in more ways than one. Come up with an actual idea that would work and come back to me.

You're right. Let's deal with the sickness first. How do we start?

 

[Kolya]

You're right. Let's deal with the sickness first. How do we start?

I don't know. I'm not afraid to say that. That's something we, as a people, need to figure out. There's plenty of things I'd like to see changed, but how practical and legal they are is subject to debate.

 

[steviebruno]

I don't know. I'm not afraid to say that. That's something we, as a people, need to figure out. There's plenty of things I'd like to see changed, but how practical and legal they are is subject to debate.

If you don't know, how can you say that addressing it would be easier than taking away guns? Can you at least identify this sickness?

 

[Kolya]

If you don't know, how can you say that addressing it would be easier than taking away guns? Can you at least identify this sickness?

Yeah, there's an utter devaluation of human life. There's this view that people that disagree with you are enemies to be hated, not fellow citizens who you disagree with. Just because I think you're mistaken in thinking guns can be confiscated doesn't mean I think you're a bad person or that I respect you less as a man. There was a time in this country where even our elected leaders could disagree in a collegial manner. In that case, part of it was the bond that they were all WW2 veterans and realized that Democrat or Republican, they were all American. That's something we've lost sight of, that's where I think we have to start.