Is Deontay wilder the greatest unskilled heavyweight in boxing history?

Bachafach

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Jul 2, 2019
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What?

All the threats are left.

Fury, Ruiz, Joshua, Whyte and Povetkin are the top guys and he's fought one of them and failed to win.

They all pose different issues and he could lose to all of them.
If Wilder had fought Ruiz before he made Joshua reconsider his lifestyle choices youd peg him as a mediocre opponent. Werent Whyte and Povetkin busted for PEDs?
 

Bachafach

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It's a very weak division, and he starts as favourite over everyone, but he hasn't come close to clearing it out.

He has fought one top 5 guy in Fury and should've lost, and one top ten guy in Ortiz, and had a lot of problems.

Stiverne and Breazeale were prob top 15/25 ish, Washington, Spilzika, etc prob 20/40 ish.

I have him as number one. I picked him to beat Fury first time, and I am picking him again, but he has only fought a couple of the top guys in what is a very slim division.

Despite his record, he still had a lot to prove
.
Last i checked it was Fury who was almost put to sleep if not for great recovery powers and a very forgiving referee.

How many top 5 fighters has Fury fought where he looked exceptional?

Apply the same critique of Wilders opposition as you do to everyone and its a bit hollow
 
Last edited:
May 19, 2013
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If Wilder had fought Ruiz before he made Joshua reconsider his lifestyle choices youd peg him as a mediocre opponent. Werent Whyte and Povetkin busted for PEDs?
Yes, that's how sport works.

You form an opinion on a person or team and then continue to evaluate your opinion based on their performances.
 

Boxed Ears

Hat not photoshopped
Jun 13, 2012
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The whole "he needs to have some skills to deliver his power " is a pretty damn valid point.
It honestly wouldn't surprise me a bit if DaVarryl Williamson hit as hard or harder than Wilder, for instance, because there are still awestruck gym rats who share stories about being touched by him. And while he was an accomplished athlete, how many of us even on the forum would pick Williamson out of a lineup of similar looking gentlemen with any real certainty? Yeah, it's a real point, even if I was being silly too. At the same time, I'm kidding about however I said it, cunningly inept or however it was phrased, because I know it's not all by design and he really is stunningly raw for his accomplishments, and I do think he fights off of his feelings/instinct/personality for long stretches, more than off calculation-longer stretches at least than you would typically see from a fighter at that level or see categorized as a highly skilled boxer or ring general. I don't really have a point, is my point. It's the point behind almost all forum comments, if you dig deep enough.
 
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Johnstown

Dominant Poster
Jun 4, 2013
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It honestly wouldn't surprise me a bit if DaVarryl Williamson hit as hard or harder than Wilder, for instance, because there are still awestruck gym rats who share stories about being touched by him. And while he was an accomplished athlete, how many of us even on the forum would pick Williamson out of a lineup of similar looking gentlemen with any real certainty? Yeah, it's a real point, even if I was being silly too. At the same time, I'm kidding about however I said it, cunningly inept or however it was phrased, because I know it's not all by design and he really is stunningly raw for his accomplishments, and I do think he fights off of his feelings/instinct/personality for long stretches, more than off calculation-longer stretches at least than you would typically see from a fighter at that level or see categorized as a highly skilled boxer or ring general. I don't really have a point, is my point. It's the point behind almost all forum comments, if you dig deep enough.
He landed that right hand at the perfect time.


Ortiz had a combination of fatigue and overconfidence going....he had squared himself up...and he was moving (in a very flat footed way) to his own left...into Wilder's power.


None of that was anything Wilder did (as I'm sure your aware) ....
 

Boxed Ears

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He landed that right hand at the perfect time.


Ortiz had a combination of fatigue and overconfidence going....he had squared himself up...and he was moving (in a very flat footed way) to his own left...into Wilder's power.


None of that was anything Wilder did (as I'm sure your aware) ....
Not really, I've never actually seen Wilder fight. I'm just going by what I read in the forums and then pretending that I was watching too.
 
Oct 22, 2012
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Honestly, Wilder's biggest weakness is his allegiance to Mark Breland. And other top trainer can take him to another level. He just can't learn anything more from him. And while Wilder has gotten far he can go so much farther by honing his boxing skills.
 
Nov 10, 2014
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Honestly, Wilder's biggest weakness is his allegiance to Mark Breland. And other top trainer can take him to another level. He just can't learn anything more from him. And while Wilder has gotten far he can go so much farther by honing his boxing skills.
His boxing skills have gradually improved from a very poor base. He was a very late starter to boxing and a slow learner, in no small part due to the fact he found he was able to just plain knock guys out.
 

Johnstown

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Jun 4, 2013
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Last i checked it was Fury who was almost put to sleep if not for great recovery powers and a very forgiving referee.

How many top 5 fighters has Fury fought where he looked exceptional?

Apply the same critique of Wilders opposition as you do to everyone and its a bit hollow
Fuck off MW.

Fury
116-110
 

Johnstown

Dominant Poster
Jun 4, 2013
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LMAO.

Wilder created that opening by feinting a second jab, then throwing the right.

Pay more attention next time.
I was actually gonna mention that.


But....the only reason it worked was oritz had flat footedly moved into a position and made himself squared up.

Wilder didnt set anything up footwork wise at all
 

Johnstown

Dominant Poster
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And leaving your hand out (really its main effect was to blind Ortiz ie block his line of sight) is a pretty basic tacit.
 
Jun 6, 2013
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I was actually gonna mention that.


But....the only reason it worked was oritz had flat footedly moved into a position and made himself squared up.

Wilder didnt set anything up footwork wise at all

True.

But it still was a skill. A basic one, for sure, but not blind luck.
 

tommygun711

You don't have the capability for mayhem
Jun 4, 2013
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It honestly wouldn't surprise me a bit if DaVarryl Williamson hit as hard or harder than Wilder, for instance, because there are still awestruck gym rats who share stories about being touched by him.
Good point about Williamson.
 

Johnstown

Dominant Poster
Jun 4, 2013
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I think there is another way to judge DW as a boxer, and that is by taking a historical perspective.

First, if we look at the rules of professional boxing today, I would say that they benefit a particular type of boxers; those considered skilled, but who may not necessarily have much power or any interest in getting hit or hit their opponents hard (e.g. Sven Ottke - so good, but also frustratingly boring to watch sometimes). At worst, it's like watching a game of chess.

Moreover, boxing has become a game where the market interests and tv deals, with scripts of 3-4 fights at a time for the 'franchise champion' means that the points system is abused to protect fighters with the highest commercial interest. Last weekend, it was Callum Smith who was gifted a wide UD, but one could also say the same about Wilder - Fury I. However, not necessarily only in favour of Wilder, who knew he had lost on points. For sure, many within the boxing industry wanted a D. Thus, the 12-rounds point scoring system, with corrupt judges and no consensus scoring, does not only benefit the 'technically skilled boxer', but by and large, I do believe it has changed the perception of who is a good or bad boxer, skilled or unskilled. The same goes for male anatomy and what the typical body looks like nowadays, reflecting the way we live and exercise our bodies today. Let me give you an alternative take on this.

If we go back a century or so, boxers often boxed an unlimited number of rounds, and you could only win by KO. Later, there could be a fixed number of rounds decided prior to the bout, but if the two went the distance without either man scoring a KO win, the bout was automatically scored a draw. If we look back at MMA as the sport was in its infancy in the 1990s, rules were pretty similar. Two men fought until there was a winner. Forget about the skills or points. Whatever the means, fight until one last man is standing. The backside of this is health and the risks involved in the sport.

In amateur boxing boxers were using headgear for decades until recently, the winner is the boxer landing most clean punches (with KDs or power punches not counting more than a simple jab), and there are standing counts. For beginners there are also diploma fights, where the boxers should not try to KO the opponent. Instead you earn the diploma through showing off your boxing skills, almost like a 'kata' in karate, but with two dudes performing at the same time in the ring. In pro boxing, a scoring system has been created that favours skilled boxers (i.e. who can hit the other more often than they are hit themselves, plus some grey rules about "ring generalship' etc., even when a man is walking backwards for 12 full rounds!), with a fixed number of rounds limited to 12 for championship matches. Significantly less than the 15 rounds used until the 1980s, or the dozens sometimes used in modern pro boxing's infancy. In many ways, modern boxing is similar to other contact sports, where rules and regulations are meant to protect the boxer's health. At least in any single fight.

Now, this is my point: Two technical boxers without too much power, such as Fury and Ortiz, could show off their boxing skills for 12 rounds, in an entertaining match, but they would probably need a lot more than 12 rounds to make either man so worn down, that he is eventually too exhausted to fight back, so that eventually the fight could end by a TKO or KO. A century or more back in time, Fury would probably outbox his opponents early on, but in a long contest he might have lost to a smaller man due to exhaustion, or (too) often going the distance in say 20 or 25 rounds. I think many spectators in those days would have considered him a rather boring boxer. At least I think we would have seen a different Tyson Fury in those days, taking more risks and slugging it out to get that win. Wilder on the other hand, who is more slim and fit, and interestingly (in terms of his anatomy) has "long" rather than "short" and pumped up muscles, could probably have boxed 20-25 rounds in the good old days in the same way he does for 12 nowadays, looking for that opening. I think he would have flattened most if not all opponents. Rarely would he have gone the distance and earned a D. Most viewers would probably have considered Wilder 'the real deal', and his legacy would have been a lot better than it is now, in this era. I also think DW would have been admired and received more acknowledgement for his physique and appearance in older times than he does today, especially among today's casuals who believe someone pumped up like AJ with his "thick neck" is the normal looks of a big, strong man. Some experts also express worries thinking DW is too light for a heavy weight, but isn't that worry built on an image of what we believe a big heavyweight boxer should look like in the 2000s?

In this respect, I'd like to add another important issue. In the old days (say before the 1970s) most strong men had built their bodies and strength from hard physical labour from a young age, for example as lumber jacks working 10 hour shifts a day for years. In appearance they looked different from the guys getting strong through lifting weights and eating PEDS nowadays. They probably had stronger back/abdomen/inner core muscles and perhaps legs too, than today's men, who build their bodies and strength in a modern gym, one body part a time. Even more so if using machines a lot, as they do not help much in building those inner core muscles. I would not be surprised if many boxers in older times actually hit as hard or even harder (with the whole body, from leg to shoulder), than many of today's boxers.

Many today believe modern sports is superior to the past, but in all honestness, we eat shit (industrialised produced food with a ton of chemicals) and many (also those who do sports at a high level) did not play and develop basic motor skills at a very young age, as kids did in the past. (This has been well documented in research. Motor skills, dexterity, balance etc. is a lot worse among children in general today compared with earlier generations.) Consequently, even if a lot of today's athletes from the western, modern world, are good, strong and skilled, relative to one another, I also believe a lot may have been lost on its way until where we are today, living in a post-industrial society.

DW to me, seems more like men did in the past. His body looks more natural than the bodies of most other heavyweights, and even if he is not that technically gifted as a boxer who can outbox other big men over 12 rounds, he is probably much more a natural fighter, and a winner man to man, whatever the era. I have no idea how DW built his body and strength. Perhaps he did it in a gym like everyone else nowadays, and he may never have climbed a tree or balanced on a wall in his entire childhood. Nevertheless, he is what he is. Genes may also play a role, and some of us got that genetic lottery ticket. We are all descending from an infinite chain of winners and survivors, so some of us do carry with us the genes of some real badasses from our human past. DW could be one of a few big men (in boxing/sports) today that has something in him that would have made him great as a hand to hand fighter, whatever the era. Outside of sports, back in time, he may have been a great warrior or gladiator. Seeing that opening at the right time, striking that deadly blow.

Imagine, if we could have put DW and Fury back in time to the ancient olympics in Greece. Boxing was one of the main events in the antiquity. A very dangerous but also very prestigious sport in a much more violent society. I predict Fury would have been struggling against men of that era, whereas Wilder probably would have stood a chance to beat the beasts that were assembled from every corner of the Roman empire. If there is any heavyweight boxer of today that has what those ancient boxers or warriors had in them, it probably is Deontay Wilder. He looks like one of them, and he hits like one of them. Most heavyweights of today don't do that.
Bluh....what a load of shit.
 
Oct 22, 2012
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His boxing skills have gradually improved from a very poor base. He was a very late starter to boxing and a slow learner, in no small part due to the fact he found he was able to just plain knock guys out.
Actually, I thi k his boxing skills have gotten worse. When he fought Stiverne the first time, he showed that he could box. He also boxed well against, and Molina. He relies too much on his power and his trainer doesn't correct his mistakes.
 
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kf3

Jul 17, 2012
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wilders skills have slowly improved imo.
but not v southpaws, i wouldn't ditch breland but a 2nd voice couldn't hurt there. or just stop fighting them.