Legendary Legends

Lester1583

Can You Hear This?
Jun 30, 2012
7,026
3,983
These guys were schooling the likes of Marquez back in the day.

The closest thing we've ever got to see to Jones-Hagler.

Bizarre, dirty, mesmerizing:

Full version:

- Quality action, gents!


[MENTION=1796]Powerpuncher[/MENTION]
[MENTION=328]Bill Jincock[/MENTION]
[MENTION=2300]Cableaddict[/MENTION]
[MENTION=2181]Zopilote[/MENTION]
[MENTION=2109]LittleRed[/MENTION]
[MENTION=1727]Bogotazo[/MENTION]
 
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Reactions: Trail and Montezuma
May 20, 2013
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Ref on the take? I don't know how anyone could make calls that bad.

It's a fascinating contest and the worst possibly style match up for Norwood. This is the man who would have beat Barrera, Morales, Hamed and Pacquaio if he boxed them around this time.

Norwood is at his best boxing and countering, so he would of been in his element against the forementioned men. But against the rangier faster Gainer he has to come forward and pressure him. Gainer is really sharp here counters on the way in as Norwood's head movement is too stiff and reactionary coming forward.

Still I thought it would have been near even if it wasn't for the shocking knock down calls by the ref. It's a shame Norwood stopped boxing after this, I don't know whether he gave up or couldn't get the fights but he's certainly P4P level around this time.

These guys were schooling the likes of Marquez back in the day.
]
Norwood deserved the win over JMM. Gainer has to be one of Marquez's better wins and disproves the myth that JMM can't fight on the front foot. Ofcourse Gainer couldn't fight inside and wasn't too strong. But he'd make an interesting opponent for Mayweather at 130. Arguably faster, southpaw, taller, rangier, counter puncher who's great outside.
 
Jun 4, 2013
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Pequod
Once, in the earlier days of the internet, I read a dissertation (and that's the only word for it) explaining why News radio was the greatest television show of all time. It probably wasn't more than 8 pages but it might have been 30.
 
Jun 10, 2013
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Poetic justice for Norwood, who cheated both on the scales and in the ring, but still ended up losing.

Ref on the take? I don't know how anyone could make calls that bad.


But whose pocket would he have been in? All through the fight, it seemed that he was actually favoring Norwood IMO, until the end.

I think he was just completely incompetent, probably senile too.

Also, I think Norwood basically just quit at the end and tried to steal a DQ in a fight that he was probably losing on the cards.


 
Jun 19, 2012
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Legendary stuff.

I never had much time for either of these two.Norwood could be effective, but was ugly as hell to watch and hardly a particularly skilled fighter.Not really any better than a Coggi or Rosi.Worse than Rosi tbh.

Gainer was a pussy, his performance against Marquez was one of the worst i've ever seen from a fighter that went into a bout quite well-rated.a poorer version of someone like Calvin Grove.
 

Lester1583

Can You Hear This?
Jun 30, 2012
7,026
3,983
Ref on the take?
Just an idiot most likely.

The world is full of them.

It's a shame Norwood stopped boxing after this, I don't know whether he gave up or couldn't get the fight
Legal problems, if I'm not mistaken.

It's a fascinating contest and the worst possibly style match up for Norwood.

But against the rangier faster Gainer he has to come forward and pressure him. Gainer is really sharp here counters on the way in as Norwood's head movement is too stiff and reactionary coming forward.
Yup, his feet were his curse.

This is the man who would have beat Barrera, Morales, Hamed and Pacquaio if he boxed them around this time.
Norwood is at his best boxing and countering, so he would of been in his element against the forementioned men.
Norwood, Casa, Guzman - wouldn't say Hamed and Co got lucky - more like those forgotten or underachieved fighters were unlucky - missing those big names or being involved in career-ending stinkers.

I'd say they were more or less on par with the bigger names.
Or maybe those bigger names weren't all that is what I'm implying here.

Norwood-Pac, for example, is headbutt-filled/left hand happy/controversial fun written all over it.

Norwood was desperate for Hamed (who wasn't, except JMM?) or anybody with a recognizable name - so desperate he even quit boxing for two years early in his career due to managerial problems and failing at securing good fights.

Check this out - nobody remembers this - Norwood is just a name on Marquez's boxrec page today, nothing more:

Mayweather, Norwood eye bout in 2000

Thursday, Aug. 5, 1999

Each man was there to hype another fight, yet the day may come when Floyd Mayweather Jr. and Freddie Norwood are paired in the ring.

Mayweather, the WBC junior lightweight champion, and Norwood, the WBA featherweight champ, appeared Wednesday at Mandalay Bay to promote a Sept. 11 card on HBO that will have Mayweather fighting Carlos Gerena and Norwood taking on Juan Manuel Marquez.

While Mayweather's optimum fight beyond Gerena is a unification match with IBF champ Roberto Garcia, Norwood could move into the picture by simply adding four pounds.

"I've got a lot of guys near the same weight and I'm content to let the pot bubble and see what happens," promoter Bob Arum said of a group that also includes world champions Cesar Soto, Nestor Garza, Stevie Johnston, Eric Morales and Paulie Ayala. "Right now there's not too much difference in weight between Floyd and Freddie, and that could be a huge fight in another year."

Mayweather, 22, is 21-0 with 16 knockouts and is a minus 1200 betting favorite in the Mandalay Bay sports book for his fight with Gerena, who is a plus 800. Gerena, 28, is 34-2 with 28 KOs but was unimpressive in a January fight in Las Vegas.

"He's not a pushover," Mayweather said of Gerena, who is training in Mexico City. "But I'm going to dig in and prove that I'm the best."

Mayweather's father (and trainer), Floyd Sr., has said for some time he feels his son is the best pound-for-pound fighter in the world today. He reiterated that claim Wednesday, saying "I don't think Little Floyd is going to have a tough time (with Gerena). There's no doubt he's the best fighter in the business."

Mayweather vs. Gerena is the main event of a card that will be held in a 4,000-seat convention area, and one that currently is slated to be blacked out in Las Vegas. Tickets are $25 to $200.

Arum has a Mayweather vs. Garcia fight tentatively slated "for early 2000" and after an easier fight for Mayweather later this year in his Grand Rapids, Mich., hometown.

"Floyd's not quite ready for a breakout pay-per-view fight," Arum said. "Right now he's big enough for a good TV fight and a good gate with a competitive opponent, and the fight with Garcia is doable because there should be some good cable (TV) money."

Assuming Mayweather will keep winning, the pressure may be on Norwood to do the same if they're to meet in the future.

As it is, his fight with Marquez could be a struggle and the sports book lists it as even, with both men at a minus 120. Norwood, 29, is 34-0-1 with 20 KOs. Marquez, soon to be 26, is 29-1 with 22 KOs.

"I've seen Marquez a few times and he's a great fighter," said Norwood's trainer, Kenny Adams. "But Freddie is much, much better."

A victory by Norwood and he could get the winner of a Nov. 6 fight between Soto and Naseem Hamed. Another win there and, presto, Norwood vs. Mayweather would fall into place and become one of the bigger fights of any year.

"I've got to whack this kid," Norwood said of Marquez, putting first things first. "And I will. I'm good at what I do and I won't let anyone down."

Gainer has to be one of Marquez's better wins and disproves the myth that JMM can't fight on the front foot.
To some extent.

But Gainer put on a simply disgraceful performance for a fighter of his talent - this was Pedroza-Taylor-like embarrassing stuff.

Not Marquez's fault, of course, but this was hardly a worthy challenger in front of him that night - even if he did possess the necessary attributes to bother JMM.

Ofcourse Gainer couldn't fight inside and wasn't too strong. But he'd make an interesting opponent for Mayweather at 130. Arguably faster, southpaw, taller, rangier, counter puncher who's great outside.
Southpaw.

Yes, faster.

Just like we've discussed before - would have been interesting to see Floyd with someone who could test his technical abilities, well, differently - not Margarito or P.Williams - but the likes of Guzman, Cory or Casa.

Winky I don't count - too big, too stubborn, too jab-obsessed.

This was one of the most hilarious fights ever.
By the way, this fight is totally forgotten today but Kelly-Gainer 1 is a must watch.

Easily the 1996 FOTY, eclipsed only by the humongous Holyfield-Tyson-1.


And almost a Harris-Jefferson-like finish.
 
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Jun 19, 2012
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I wonder what possessed Gainer to choke so badly against Marquez.

It's not like he was going in against some Zarate or Olivares punching type with the kind of reputation that can get to fighters that would otherwise be solid.Marquez was mostly considered a quality standup technical fighter at the time, and not any kind of offensive beast.The fight as said, seemed to suit Gainer beforehand.
 

Lester1583

Can You Hear This?
Jun 30, 2012
7,026
3,983
I never had much time for either of these two.Norwood could be effective, but was ugly as hell to watch and hardly a particularly skilled fighter.
You're just saying that cuz Norwood made Bungu his bitch.

Admit it.

Worse than Rosi tbh.
That was actually the reason why Curry was Norwood's manager once.

He subconsciously wanted Norwood to fail - that would have reaffirmed Curry's non-existent greatness.

That's why he matched him with a prime blood-thirsty Bungu.

But Lil Hagler proved him wrong!

He proved all of you wrong!

Bad, mad and sexy!


Marquez was mostly considered a quality standup technical fighter at the time, and not any kind of offensive beast.
Rafael was rated higher and considered a better fighter back then.

Good ol' days of irrelevant JMM.

I miss those.

I wonder what possessed Gainer to choke so badly against Marquez.
Jones' underground cock fights.

Gainer was his cock.
 
Jun 19, 2012
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Gradovich got schooled in that round.Looks like he's slowing a bit and starting to feel the punches too.maybe just taking a breather, but that looked a worrying round for him.
 
May 20, 2013
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Norwood, Casa, Guzman - wouldn't say Hamed and Co got lucky - more like those forgotten or underachieved fighters were unlucky - missing those big names or being involved in career-ending stinkers.

I'd say they were more or less on par with the bigger names.
Or maybe those bigger names weren't all that is what I'm implying here.

Norwood-Pac, for example, is headbutt-filled/left hand happy/controversial fun written all over it.
YEa I'd go with that I think Morales/MAB/Pacquaio are overrated to differing degrees, having said that I don't think they look out of place against Saldivar, Pep or Saddler. Who all had their own limitations. Pep's was that he could be bullied in there. Marquez for me is the best of those mentioned here.

If those match ups did happen the fans would be happy enough with the rugged fighter winning with ineffective aggression, or something like that.

Norwood was desperate for Hamed (who wasn't, except JMM?) or anybody with a recognizable name - so desperate he even quit boxing for two years early in his career due to managerial problems and failing at securing good fights.

Check this out - nobody remembers this - Norwood is just a name on Marquez's boxrec page today, nothing more:
Yea cheers for that, it's such a slight difference between the boxer no one remembers and the one who is the face of the sport.


To some extent.

But Gainer put on a simply disgraceful performance for a fighter of his talent - this was Pedroza-Taylor-like embarrassing stuff.

Not Marquez's fault, of course, but this was hardly a worthy challenger in front of him that night - even if he did possess the necessary attributes to bother JMM.
I think he was and Marquez took away his offense with his defence and punished every mistake. Gainer was mentally beat. I suppose he wasn't someone who could adapt when his strengths were taken away and obviously not a tough guy.

By the way, this fight is totally forgotten today but Kelly-Gainer 1 is a must watch.

Easily the 1996 FOTY, eclipsed only by the humongous Holyfield-Tyson-1.

[video=youtube;l3GCj4QZST0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3GCj4QZST0[/video]

And almost a Harris-Jefferson-like finish.
Yea quality stuff, Kelley's last top level win.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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I wonder what possessed Gainer to choke so badly against Marquez.

It's not like he was going in against some Zarate or Olivares punching type with the kind of reputation that can get to fighters that would otherwise be solid.Marquez was mostly considered a quality standup technical fighter at the time, and not any kind of offensive beast.The fight as said, seemed to suit Gainer beforehand.
He just had an awful strategy and mindset in the fight. It's a shame because Marquez was befuddled by the speed.
 

Lester1583

Can You Hear This?
Jun 30, 2012
7,026
3,983
All experts voted for Pele in 1970.
Some for Muller.
Few for Cubillas.

I voted for Byshovets.
YEa I'd go with that I think Morales/MAB/Pacquaio are overrated to differing degrees, having said that I don't think they look out of place against Saldivar, Pep or Saddler. Who all had their own limitations. Pep's was that he could be bullied in there. Marquez for me is the best of those mentioned here.
I agree and disagree.

Both Pep and Saddler are overestimated as H2H-forces and in general.

Neither looks head and shoulders above other great feathers.

"Won a round without throwing a punch!"

Legends and myths don't mean shit.

Pep does look like your usual great defensive fighter - nothing more, nothing less.
Excellent movement, nice counterpunching, good reaction, feather fisted and physically not impressive.
Even in the sole prime footage (which is inconclusive admittedly) he never makes you forget about other great defensive fighters, he never looks a cut above Floyd, Benitez, Whitaker, you name them.

He did look faded against Saddler, particularly in the legs department, but still a useful fighter, not a spent force by any means.

Angott outboxed him fair and square, by the way.

Saddler is cut from the same cloth as Monzon, Foster and Foreman - his whole style and skillset is based around his physical attributes.

A one weight fighter strictly.

A very tough proposition for many fighters - especially for those who are not 100% mentally and physically tough.

But this kind of maul/clinch/suffocating pressure/defense with your face tactics would be very risky against someone of Arguello's dimensions and power or Marquez's combination punching ability.

He was never unbeatable nor unoutboxable.

Old Saddler looked flat-out outclasses by a green Elorde - a fighter of Barrera's calibur.

Saddler would get dq'd under more stricter rules against certain boxer-type fighters or would lose a decision.

All those 3 modern mexicans have their own strengths and deficiencies that are well-known - I don't see Marquez as the one who stands out the most out of those fighters we've discussed.

Pep-Marquez/Morales is a toss-up - meaning that it's a toss-up between Pep embarrassing them or winning a wide decision - depends on how highly do you rate these two.

Saldivar is the most rounded up balanced fighter out of these.
Doesn't necessarily make him the best though.
 

MadcapMaxie

RIP Morrison/Joe Rein
May 21, 2013
5,559
198
'Straya
The final 2 nut uppercuts, followed by the "OHHHHHHHHHHHHH", followed by the ridiculous 20 count. Greatest ending to a fight ever :rofl
 
Jun 19, 2012
1,413
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I agree and disagree.

Both Pep and Saddler are overestimated as H2H-forces and in general.

Neither looks head and shoulders above other great feathers.

"Won a round without throwing a punch!"

Legends and myths don't mean shit.

Pep does look like your usual great defensive fighter - nothing more, nothing less.
Excellent movement, nice counterpunching, good reaction, feather fisted and physically not impressive.
Even in the sole prime footage (which is inconclusive admittedly) he never makes you forget about other great defensive fighters, he never looks a cut above Floyd, Benitez, Whitaker, you name them.

He did look faded against Saddler, particularly in the legs department, but still a useful fighter, not a spent force by any means.

Angott outboxed him fair and square, by the way.

Saddler is cut from the same cloth as Monzon, Foster and Foreman - his whole style and skillset is based around his physical attributes.

A one weight fighter strictly.

A very tough proposition for many fighters - especially for those who are not 100% mentally and physically tough.

But this kind of maul/clinch/suffocating pressure/defense with your face tactics would be very risky against someone of Arguello's dimensions and power or Marquez's combination punching ability.

He was never unbeatable nor unoutboxable.

Old Saddler looked flat-out outclasses by a green Elorde - a fighter of Barrera's calibur.

Saddler would get dq'd under more stricter rules against certain boxer-type fighters or would lost a decision.

All those 3 modern mexicans have their own strengths and deficiencies that are well-known - I don't see Marquez as the one who stands out the most out of those fighters we've discussed.

Pep-Marquez/Morales is a toss-up - meaning that it's a toss-up between Pep embarrassing them or winning a wide decision - depends on how highly do you rate these two.

Saldivar is the most rounded up balanced fighter out of these.
Doesn't necessarily make him the best though.
Byshovets:rofl

Loads of talent, but i could never forgive him for his stint as Russia manager.