Marilyn Monroe - Overrated, or Underrated?

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murphyx500

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The problem with old timey hot women is they could all have had terrible gashes and because the fappening wasn't a thing there's no way we can know.
 

Honeybee

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I watched "River of No Return" multiple times on television, but not since the 1990's. By this millennium, I was familiar enough with her films and interviews not to bother anymore, so much of what I'm contributing here is actually from distant memory. I did enjoy her film noir work, since they supplied dramatic B&W characterizations completely different from what made her culturally iconic.

How to Marry a Millionaire was enjoyable for me because she got to work with Betty Grable, one of the friendliest and most easy going movie stars in Hollywood. Lauren Bacall described filming it as a pleasant production, so I liked knowing that they were enjoying what they were doing without drama, and that Grable became such good friends with Monroe, joking or painting each other's nails when Marilyn wasn't with her acting coach. During rough patches during Monroe's subsequent brief marriage to Joe DiMaggio, Grable was often one of the first friends Monroe would call for support.

Shelley Winters was probably her closest actress friend in the business, but Winters was a MUCH stronger and more willful personality who ditched her blonde bombshell image for 1951's "A Place in the Sun" for a Best Actress nomination, could do stage, radio and television as well as movies, and was known for not putting up with any shit.

This is only speculation, but I suspect it bothered Marilyn that her former roommate went career wise where Monroe herself might like to have gone during the 1950's, especially when Winters won Best Supporting Actress for 1959's "The Diary of Anne Frank." Think about this. The 37 year old Winters secured her acting future by portraying a character 20 years older than herself in real life, while for "Some Like It Hot" the year before, 32 year old Marilyn had to play 24 year old Sugar "Kane" Kowalczyk, so one was casting aside her image of youth for a future playing older characters, while the other was trapped in the image of a youthful past while getting older. I do wonder if this might have worn on Monroe and soured her on movies as the 1950's were ending. Jayne Mansfield was seven years younger and lived five years longer. Looking at Jayne's career trajectory after the 1950's, not sure that Marilyn had much box office potential left.

BTW, speaking of Monroe and Mansfield, there are VERY few photographs of them together which are not PhotoShopped, but here are a couple at the peaks of their careers at the premiere of "The Rose Tattoo." (A few other pictures were taken at this time, but these appear to be the best of the two in the same shot. Unlike Sophia Loren, Marilyn doesn't seem particularly bothered by Jayne standing over her.):


Really good assessment and I agree with it. Right before she passed she did lament the fact she was older and opportunities had started to dry up; in effect she was going backwards. Had she lived I'm not really sure it would've been possible for her to return to her former glory. We have to remember at the time she was a 36 year old woman, middle aged, and the only roles for her were young blonde bombshell types as you pointed out....it wouldn't & couldn't of lasted much longer. For her to resurrect her career she was going to have to be cast in a serious picture and play a serious role (much different than what she had been accustomed and made her mark as) that could've garnered her some kind of acting award. You mentioned Shelley Winters - I saw an interview with her where she was talking about how she was told if she wanted an extensive career in Hollywood then it would be a good idea to star in the Anne Frank movie, which she did and won an Oscar for. That ensured she would be a viable and actress long into her older years. MM was typecast and by that point was considered very difficult to work with, hadn't been in a hit movie in over 3 years and her reputation was in tatters. Fox had been been blasting her for months after having let her go - it's not true she had signed a new contract to complete Something's got to give. There was an article I read that had a comment from her lawyer about the contract, renegotiation's were taking place, but he said he hadn't shown her the contract yet. Fox didn't really want her back and per the contract, there were certain concessions she was going to have to make which he was skeptical she'd be able to meet.
 
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Duo

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Really good assessment and I agree with it. Right before she passed she did lament the fact she was older and opportunities had started to dry up; in effect she was going backwards. Had she lived I'm not really sure it would've been possible for her to return to her former glory. We have to remember at the time she was a 36 year old woman, middle aged, and the only roles for her were young blonde bombshell types as you pointed out....it wouldn't & couldn't of lasted much longer. For her to resurrect her career she was going to have to be cast in a serious picture and play a serious role (much different than what she had been accustomed and made her mark as) that could've garnered her some kind of acting award.

You mentioned Shelley Winters - I saw an interview with her where she was talking about how she was told if she wanted an extensive career in Hollywood then it would be a good idea to star in the Anne Frank movie, which she did and won an Oscar for. That ensured she would be a viable and actress long into her older years.



I assume that interview with Shelley Winters you are referring to is in the conclusion of the following clip with Tom Snyder in 1996 beginning at 15:10, where at 15:39 she discusses how MM "couldn't get older," then she segues at 15:56 into how differently, "I...was very lucky" with sage advice from "The Diary of Anne Frank" director George Stevens, where when he asks Shelley if she would do that film when she was 33 playing a woman who was 53 that "you will act all your life," expressing tremendous gratitude to Stevens for that. (In fact, she was amused during the last decade of her life that she was ultimately best known as Roseanne's sitcom grandmother "Nana Mary" over ten episodes from 1991 to 1996.)

Again, forward to say, 15:54 for the her closing comments about George Stevens hiring Winters with the advice which secured her acting future for the next 40 years (ending as Professor Summers in the awful Italian Vito Antuofermo vehicle (well, this IS a boxing website) La Bomba, also the film finale of her former husband (and father of her only child) Vittorio Gassman.:



MM was typecast and by that point was considered very difficult to work with, hadn't been in a hit movie in over 3 years and her reputation was in tatters. Fox had been been blasting her for months after having let her go - it's not true she had signed a new contract to complete Something's got to give. There was an article I read that had a comment from her lawyer about the contract, renegotiation's were taking place, but he said he hadn't shown her the contract yet. Fox didn't really want her back and per the contract, there were certain concessions she was going to have to make which he was skeptical she'd be able to meet.
She lends herself well to lucrative mythology, and the allegation of having signed a new contract is part of that.

To me though, what's interesting about her death is how MM's late physician Hyman Engleberg perjured himself by claiming he only prescribed Marilyn Nembutal, and NOT chloral hydrate, when an enlarged enhancement of the bottles at her deathbed table clearly shows Engleberg's name as the prescribing physician on a printed bottle label of chloral hydrate in a documentary about her death ten years after Engleberg's 2005 death at age 92. That bastard committed malpractice, lied about not prescribing chloral hydrate to Marilyn, and got away with it. No, I do NOT believe she was murdered or committed suicide. Shelley Winters speculated EXACTLY what happened to Marilyn was something which also happened to herself in interviews on camera. Monroe simply lost track of how many pills she had taken, and was trying to call for help when she realized the mistake she'd made.

Her psychiatrist Ralph Greenson appears to have been sincere on the other hand according to available evidence about weaning her off her dependence on drugs, but although just a couple years older than Engelberg, he died in 1979, so Englelberg lived to tell his side of the story until photographic enhancement of her death scene by officials at the scene in 1962 exposed Engelberg as a liar. (A psychiatrist would have been far less likely to prescribe Nembutal with chloral hydrate anyway, and Greenson was psychoanalytically oriented, as demonstrated by his publications, not a practitioner of psychopharmacology.)
 
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Honeybee

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I assume that interview with Shelley Winters you are referring to is in the conclusion of the following clip with Tom Snyder in 1996 beginning at 15:10, where at 15:39 she discusses how MM "couldn't get older," then she segues at 15:56 into how differently, "I...was very lucky" with sage advice from "The Diary of Anne Frank" director George Stevens, where when he asks Shelley if she would do that film when she was 33 playing a woman who was 53 that "you will act all your life," expressing tremendous gratitude to Stevens for that. (In fact, she was amused during the last decade of her life that she was ultimately best known as Roseanne's sitcom grandmother "Nana Mary" over ten episodes from 1991 to 1996.)

Again, forward to say, 15:54 for the her closing comments about George Stevens hiring Winters with the advice which secured her acting future for the next 40 years (ending as Professor Summers in the awful Italian Vito Antuofermo vehicle (well, this IS a boxing website) La Bomba, also the film finale of her former husband (and father of her only child) Vittorio Gassman.:





She lends herself well to lucrative mythology, and the allegation of having signed a new contract is part of that.

To me though, what's interesting about her death is how MM's late physician Hyman Engleberg perjured himself by claiming he only prescribed Marilyn Nembutal, and NOT chloral hydrate, when an enlarged enhancement of the bottles at her deathbed table clearly shows Engleberg's name as the prescribing physician on a printed bottle label of chloral hydrate in a documentary about her death ten years after Engleberg's 2005 death at age 92. That bastard committed malpractice, lied about not prescribing chloral hydrate to Marilyn, and got away with it. No, I do NOT believe she was murdered or committed suicide. Shelley Winters speculated EXACTLY what happened to Marilyn was something which also happened to herself in interviews on camera. Monroe simply lost track of how many pills she had taken, and was trying to call for help when she realized the mistake she'd made.

Her psychiatrist Ralph Greenson appears to have been sincere on the other hand according to available evidence about weaning her off her dependence on drugs, but although just a couple years older than Engelberg, he died in 1979, so Englelberg lived to tell his side of the story until photographic enhancement of her death scene by officials at the scene in 1962 exposed Engelberg as a liar. (A psychiatrist would have been far less likely to prescribe Nembutal with chloral hydrate anyway, and Greenson was psychoanalytically oriented, as demonstrated by his publications, not a practitioner of psychopharmacology.)
Totally, I think it's a case of a lot of people adoring and wanting to keep a good memory of her, that they kinda glossed over how turbulent the last year of her life, especially the last few months, was. It got repeated so much and for so long that its made its way into print etc. and people have accepted it as fact. It makes a great story - you WANT to believe things were on the up and up but it was not so in this case. I get it, I love Marilyn too, in fact I have something like 5-6 books books about her life in my personal library (just about the only books I have about any kind of entertainer). I'm not biased though and have always wanted to separate the fact from the fiction; the truth was her life was on a downward trajectory. She was a total mess from the prescription drug & alcohol abuse, her worsening mental health...all this compacted by her loss of reputation & the embarrassment of having fired by 20th Century Fox. Truthfully, and it sounds kinda terrible to say, her habits didn't exactly support longevity. Never mind what she had to take to successfully get through a scene, even to simply get by in daily life, her lifestyle meant she was probably was not going to live for a long time.

There a lot of fascinating theories about her death. I also don't think the official story is correct although not a nefarious plot by the Kennedy's to silence her either lol. It's said she had an affair with the President and his Brother (I can believe that) and that she was going to do an expose, so they responded in turn by having her killed. While it no doubt would've hurt them politically, I also think it would've harmed Marilyn because a good amount of the public wouldn't have believed her and considered her crazy for stepping forward. It would've finished her in the public eye and I think she would've known that. It also simply wasn't her style - you could label her a couple of different things, but she was not retaliatory in nature. Had a big heart but was troubled and put up with a lot of abuse, which is why a lot of people took advantage of her.

The Kennedy conspiracy is sensational and makes a super fascinating read, it sells, but nah. I also think it was simply down to a case of medical negligence. Like yourself I think the doctor’s had simply screwed up. She did “Doctor shop” and was getting prescriptions from different people. I forget what the barbiturate in her system was other than Choral Hydrate, but I remember an article where it had mentioned the interaction between the two can be lethal. Engelberg and Greenson didn’t know what the other was prescribing and when they found out it was simply too late. I think it’s the most plausible explanation, especially when you consider they were the one’s that had seen her first along with her personal assistant and publicist. There was a 3-4 hr gap from the time they found her until calling the police. I’m sure during that time they probably moved things around/came up with their own version of events in order to cover their tracks; the truth would’ve surely cost them their professions and they were both prominent if I recall.

You are correct, Engelberg did lie. He said he never prescribed her the Choral Hydrate and she had probably picked it up in Mexico (the video is on youtube) but a few years ago they auctioned off the script for the Choral Hydrate.




@Haggis I saw your comment about not having seen any of her films. You should check out Gentlemen prefer Blondes, one of her better films and it was shot in color.
 
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Duo

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You are correct, Engelberg did lie. He said he never prescribed her the Choral Hydrate and she had probably picked it up in Mexico (the video is on youtube) but a few years ago they auctioned off the script for the Choral Hydrate.


:good

That Rx document image is a superb contribution to this thread! Now here's Engleberg's actual perjuring as recorded in 1982 by the Los Angeles District Attorney's Office for an official investigation into whether of not there was enough evidence to reopen the case into her death. He admits to prescribing ONLY Nembutal, but explicitly denies prescribing her chloral hydrate. We are supplying the proof that not only was there enough evidence in existence at the time, what Engleberg officially states from 1:28 to 1:39 was enough to convict him of perjury, strip him of his license and jail him.:



Here, on camera, Engleberg has the audacity to clearly repeat his flagrant lie (a frankly STUPID denial, as he HAD to know the proof which could and ultimately did expose him existed). His specific lying denial runs from 4:00 to 4:10 (after the clip begins with him discussing his having her being on Nembutal, and claiming an effort and intention to reduce the amount of Nembutal she was using).:

 
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Honeybee

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:good

That Rx document image is a superb contribution to this thread! Now here's Engleberg's actual perjuring as recorded in 1982 by the Los Angeles District Attorney's Office for an official investigation into whether of not there was enough evidence to reopen the case into her death. He admits to prescribing ONLY Nembutal, but explicitly denies prescribing her chloral hydrate. We are supplying the proof that not only was there enough evidence in existence at the time, what Engleberg officially states from 1:28 to 1:39 was enough to convict him of perjury, strip him of his license and jail him.:



Here, on camera, Engleberg has the audacity to clearly repeat his flagrant lie (a frankly STUPID denial, as he HAD to know the proof which could and ultimately did expose him existed). His specific lying denial runs from 4:00 to 4:10 (after the clip begins with him discussing his having her being on Nembutal, and claiming an effort and intention to reduce the amount of Nembutal she was using).:

It's too bad it hadn't been known previously. It would've been enough to implicate him - now I suppose it doesn't really matter as he's dead. There is only one person still alive who was present when MM was first discovered, and undoubtedly knows the truth, her publicist Patricia Newcomb. The problem is she doesn't talk about it...EVER. Perhaps someday she'll make a deathbed confession - i'm sure Marilyn is at peace but it would be good so the the matter can finally be put to rest in the public consciousness.


 
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Duo

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From this clip I submitted in post #143, I think Shelley Winters simply and briefly nails exactly what happened to Marilyn from 11:22 to 11:29:


"I think she - uh - uh - had some whisky, and she couldn't sleep and took some pills and forgot how many - - I have done that - I never have a drink after dinner, in fact I hardly ever drink, except - - when I work, and I have a very emotional scene, I have to have some wine - - since that happened." (Shelley alluding to losing count of how many pills she had taken.)

Could Marilyn be alive today at age 92? (Honor Blackman is one example of a more mature sex symbol who's older than MM, and her career took off after Monroe's death, although her film career actually began two years earlier with 1947's "Fame Is The Spur." Blackman does carry herself in a manner similar to Marilyn's back arching posture.) MM's diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic and frequently institutionalized mother Gladys lived from 1902 to 1984. (Her older half sister Berniece Inez Gladys Baker was the second child of Gladys and Jasper Baker. Born on July 30, 1919, she's reportedly still alive at age 99, and her daughter Mona Rae, born July 18, 1939 has affectionate letters handwritten to her from her famous aunt.)

Berniece on the left, a VERY recognizable Norma Jeane in the middle holding Mona Rae in front, and Berniece and Marilyn's mother Gladys on the right at the beach, 1946. (The half sisters finally met in 1944, and remained in contact until Marilyn's death, as correspondence in their possession proves.):



I did not read "My Sister Marilyn" published by Berniece Baker Miracle and her daughter Mona (who is academically accomplished, performed in theater and studied with Lee Strasberg herself - the veracity of her 18 year relationship with her famous aunt is NOT open to dispute, and one of the letters from Marilyn to Mona waxes nostalgic about seeing her niece grow up from the 4-5 year old girl in that family picture into a young woman.

So she actually did have a family with some normal people in it, but rather stridently compartmentalized them from her career and public life, and there appear to be ample family album photographs to prove it:



Marilyn certainly had medical issues, but such problems are not necessarily blocks to good genetic longevity, and her fitness regimen was Kirk Douglas sustainable, not so demanding to break her body down, and in certain respects, her weight maintaining exercise routine might well have gotten her to 2019 alive. Shelley Winters was fat for the last 44 years of her life, yet lived to be 85 while taking some of the same medications as Monroe until a heart attack three months after turning 85 permanently downgraded her health. (MM contemporary Mamie Van Doren remains extremely active at 87, and will turn 88 in a month.)

Ultimately though, her gynecological problems were of a nature which could well have cost her her life without a preemptive hysterectomy to eliminate her endometriosis and other reproductive system difficulties, but it would have required her abandoning her dream of becoming the mother she so desperately wanted to be. She had many problems, but again, her workout routine was incredibly moderate and disciplined, the sort of jogging and weight training which prevents and reverses osteoporosis and has now been clinically proved to enhance longevity. Aside from the barbiturates and champagne, she could well have maximized the benefits of the genetics for longevity she shared with her mother and older half sister. (Against her would be allegations of around a dozen early career abortions, if true. Not a great health practice.)
 

Duo

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It's too bad it hadn't been known previously. It would've been enough to implicate him - now I suppose it doesn't really matter as he's dead. There is only one person still alive who was present when MM was first discovered, and undoubtedly knows the truth, her publicist Patricia Newcomb. The problem is she doesn't talk about it...EVER. Perhaps someday she'll make a deathbed confession - i'm sure Marilyn is at peace but it would be good so the the matter can finally be put to rest in the public consciousness.


I like the picture of Marilyn with old buddy Mitchum from "River of No Return."

Regarding Pat Newcomb, there are questions about just how close she was to Marilyn. However, giving her the benefit of a doubt, it seems the relative Monroe actually felt closest to was the niece she watched grow up, Mona Rae Miracle. (Paris Miracle was the father Berniece married on October 7, 1938. Mona Rae Miracle was born on July 18, 1939 so this was no shotgun wedding. Father Paris lived from 1918 to 1990. Berniece has a plot waiting for her by his side. Incidentally, it was reportedly Berniece who selected the dress Marilyn was interred in.)

MM begged Berniece (who stayed with her during her recovery from gallbladder surgery) "Honey, please never give out any stories about me." (Was this also a condition she required of her publicist Newcomb which she is honoring?) Berniece stayed quiet, but by the early 1990's felt she finally had to break her promise because of all the falsehoods proliferating. The Miracles, both mother and daughter, didn't really have the means to visit Marilyn much, and many writers and celebrities have dismissed or ignored that Berniece and Mona Rae had any role at all in Monroe's life, but they simply have too much in the way of photographs with and correspondence from Marilyn, far more than enough to contradict those claims of either a distant or nonexistent relationship. "My Sister Marilyn" might be an interesting read. Mona Rae was 22 and in her first year of teaching when her aunt died. They were 14 years apart in age and much closer than is commonly realized. Living in Kentucky, they didn't have the wealth to see her much, but she sent them plenty of her outfits, more physical proof of their relationship. Now 79, Mona Rae appears to be the youngest living person who MM truly loved. She and her mother do share a family resemblance.

Both Berniece and Mona believe it was an accidental overdose, not suicide or murder. They cite things like all the appointments she had lined up. It makes more since that MM was so preoccupied with her upcoming activities that it was further interfering with her ability to sleep.

Incidentally, I wouldn't rule out that Marilyn might have had obstructive sleep apnea, a condition decades away from being diagnosible and still in the Stone Age of treatability today. Typically, people with this condition need to sleep on their stomachs to keep their airways open, where being on one's back tends to collapse their airways. Even lying on her belly, she reportedly snored sometimes. Here's a famous shot of her in a pair of classic shrink-to-fit 501 Levis completely crashed out between takes during "The Misfits." (The prankster's hand reaching to tickle her left foot is speculated to be that of Montgomery Clift.) I like seeing her sound asleep in a situation where she's not acting, or knocked out on drugs.:





Mona Rae Miracle experimenting with being a short haired blonde at age 30 circa 1969-1970. Does she resemble her aunt?:

 

Honeybee

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I like the picture of Marilyn with old buddy Mitchum from "River of No Return."

Regarding Pat Newcomb, there are questions about just how close she was to Marilyn. However, giving her the benefit of a doubt, it seems the relative Monroe actually felt closest to was the niece she watched grow up, Mona Rae Miracle. (Paris Miracle was the father Berniece married on October 7, 1938. Mona Rae Miracle was born on July 18, 1939 so this was no shotgun wedding. Father Paris lived from 1918 to 1990. Berniece has a plot waiting for her by his side. Incidentally, it was reportedly Berniece who selected the dress Marilyn was interred in.)

MM begged Berniece (who stayed with her during her recovery from gallbladder surgery) "Honey, please never give out any stories about me." (Was this also a condition she required of her publicist Newcomb which she is honoring?) Berniece stayed quiet, but by the early 1990's felt she finally had to break her promise because of all the falsehoods proliferating. The Miracles, both mother and daughter, didn't really have the means to visit Marilyn much, and many writers and celebrities have dismissed or ignored that Berniece and Mona Rae had any role at all in Monroe's life, but they simply have too much in the way of photographs with and correspondence from Marilyn, far more than enough to contradict those claims of either a distant or nonexistent relationship. "My Sister Marilyn" might be an interesting read. Mona Rae was 22 and in her first year of teaching when her aunt died. They were 14 years apart in age and much closer than is commonly realized. Living in Kentucky, they didn't have the wealth to see her much, but she sent them plenty of her outfits, more physical proof of their relationship. Now 79, Mona Rae appears to be the youngest living person who MM truly loved. She and her mother do share a family resemblance.

Both Berniece and Mona believe it was an accidental overdose, not suicide or murder. They cite things like all the appointments she had lined up. It makes more since that MM was so preoccupied with her upcoming activities that it was further interfering with her ability to sleep.

Incidentally, I wouldn't rule out that Marilyn might have had obstructive sleep apnea, a condition decades away from being diagnosible and still in the Stone Age of treatability today. Typically, people with this condition need to sleep on their stomachs to keep their airways open, where being on one's back tends to collapse their airways. Even lying on her belly, she reportedly snored sometimes. Here's a famous shot of her in a pair of classic shrink-to-fit 501 Levis completely crashed out between takes during "The Misfits." (The prankster's hand reaching to tickle her left foot is speculated to be that of Montgomery Clift.) I like seeing her sound asleep in a situation where she's not acting, or knocked out on drugs.:





Mona Rae Miracle experimenting with being a short haired blonde at age 30 circa 1969-1970. Does she resemble her aunt?:

You can totally see the family resemblance. Good looks run in the family. She looks just like her mama. MM's half sister Berneice looks very similar to her and gives you an idea of what she would look like had she made it into old age.



In the family picture at the restaurant the sister is all the way to the left. Marilyn is way over to the right wedged between those two women. Her Mother is the woman in the bottom near the middle looking over her shoulder.

About Montgomery Clift - he supposedly was a huge mess during the filming of The Misfits. So much so MM famously said he is the only person she knew that was in much worse shape then she was :yikes

Have you ever seen these ?


Really old - 1950!
 
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My friend and I watched an old Marilyn Monroe classic comedy last night -- "Some Like It Hot" w/ Tony Curtis and Jack Lemmon. Funny movie-- worth a look (if you haven't seen it.) I couldn't help but notice that Monroe looked a little "beefy" in this movie. She still played the role of the ditzy seductress superbly however. Still, I never understood why Hollywood swooned over her as much as they did
 

Duo

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My friend and I watched an old Marilyn Monroe classic comedy last night -- "Some Like It Hot" w/ Tony Curtis and Jack Lemmon. Funny movie-- worth a look (if you haven't seen it.) I couldn't help but notice that Monroe looked a little "beefy" in this movie. She still played the role of the ditzy seductress superbly however. Still, I never understood why Hollywood swooned over her as much as they did
"Fat thing" is how she described how she looked in it to Clark Gable, not "beefy." She weighed over 20 more pounds than normal.

Marilyn looked like that because she was pregnant before and during filming, and tried to eat her way out of it so she wouldn't have to work while pregnant. (She finally miscarried on the date the movie premiered.)

It's reported she thought Curtis and Lemmon were much more important to the success of "Some Like It Hot," and that it might have been an even bigger hit with another actress.
 
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"Fat thing" is how she described how she looked in it to Clark Gable, not "beefy." She weighed over 20 more pounds than normal.

Marilyn looked like that because she was pregnant before and during filming, and tried to eat her way out of it so she wouldn't have to work while pregnant. (She finally miscarried on the date the movie premiered.)

It's reported she thought Curtis and Lemmon were much more important to the success of "Some Like It Hot," and that it might have been an even bigger hit with another actress.
No doubt at all that Tony Curtis and Jack Lemmon made that movie what it was. They were in every scene in the movie being the two main characters and they brought a lot of acting ability to their parts.

Jack Lemmon is one of my favorite comedic actors from that era and his run of hit movies is outstanding. He was hilarious as Felix Unger in "The Odd Couple" playing opposite Walter Matthau and I liked him opposite Henry Fonda in "Mr. Roberts" as Ensign Pulver.
 
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You can totally see the family resemblance. Good looks run in the family. She looks just like her mama. MM's half sister Berneice looks very similar to her and gives you an idea of what she would look like had she made it into old age.



In the family picture at the restaurant the sister is all the way to the left. Marilyn is way over to the right wedged between those two women. Her Mother is the woman in the bottom near the middle looking over her shoulder.

About Montgomery Clift - he supposedly was a huge mess during the filming of The Misfits. So much so MM famously said he is the only person she knew that was in much worse shape then she was :yikes

Have you ever seen these ?


Really old - 1950!
No, I have NOT seen those commercials. (Again, bear in mind I really haven't been interested in her since before the advent of the internet. It was a celebrity autopsy documentary exposing Engleberg's lies about not prescribing her chloral hydrate which is largely responsible for my current resurgence of interest here.)

What kind of mother might she have been? Fiercely protective for one thing, I believe. In sharp contrast to her usual movie delivery and tone used in those commercials, she flashes anger with a moment of what might have been her true voice, when George Cukor distracts her as she's working with kids on "Something's Got To Give." The way she says "Yes!" to him at 0:27 then immediately follows with a smile and reassuring "You will" to one of the children provides a rare instance of her being protective instead of vulnerable. There are audio recordings of her speaking in her true voice, but nothing out of character on camera like that "Yes!" she unloads here. (Cukor was abusive, as outtakes make clear, not directing but harassing. After being happy with her experience and the outcome of "Bus Stop," I think MM's tolerance for mistreatment was shot.):


Here are what the children in that scene had to say about her years later.:

 
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Duo

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No doubt at all that Tony Curtis and Jack Lemmon made that movie what it was. They were in every scene in the movie being the two main characters and they brought a lot of acting ability to their parts.

Jack Lemmon is one of my favorite comedic actors from that era and his run of hit movies is outstanding. He was hilarious as Felix Unger in "The Odd Couple" playing opposite Walter Matthau and I liked him opposite Henry Fonda in "Mr. Roberts" as Ensign Pulver.
Columbia Studios head Harry Cohn wanted to change his name to Lennon, but Jack reasoned that if "King" Cohn could change his last name, he could change Lemmon in other ways as well, so flatly refused. He was always a source of mystery to Cohn, who considered Lemmon "the nicest kid we've ever had on this lot." (Broderick Crawford is the actor Cohn is supposed to have understood, liked and respected the most. Crawford pleased Cohn when he said whenever the press asked him about Cohn, "I'll just say, 'You're a son of a bitch!,' and that's it!" By contrast, Cohn went ballistic when Kim Novak described him to a reporter as "very nice." Novak, long retired from films today but no kind of recluse still looks good at 85, has been happily married for over 40 years, and doing what she always wanted, which wasn't acting or movies. You can check out her website, where you might even take a shot at contacting her through her business manager here: https://www.kimnovakartist.com/ .)
 
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(Broderick Crawford is the actor Cohn is supposed to have understood, liked and respected the most. Crawford pleased Cohn when he said whenever the press asked him about Cohn, "I'll just say, 'You're a son of a bitch!, .)

I don't get that in the least. I grew up watching Crawford eat up the scenery in "Highway Patrol", a weekly TV drama supposedly about true cases the Highway Patrol was responsible for handling and bringing to a conclusion. He was absolutely awful in that role, often mumbling his lines at breakneck speed like he was auditioning to be an auctioneer. Oh, and his fast pace walk around the sets made John Wayne's strange gait look absolutely mucho macho.
 

Duo

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I don't get that in the least. I grew up watching Crawford eat up the scenery in "Highway Patrol", a weekly TV drama supposedly about true cases the Highway Patrol was responsible for handling and bringing to a conclusion. He was absolutely awful in that role, often mumbling his lines at breakneck speed like he was auditioning to be an auctioneer. Oh, and his fast pace walk around the sets made John Wayne's strange gait look absolutely mucho macho.
First reading about it in Cohn's biography surprised me too. As for John Wayne, whenever he was asked about Cohn, he was honestly describing the co-founder of Columbia Pictures as a son of a bitch, and always enjoyed telling Cohn off when he wanted to borrow Wayne for a movie.

My actual first exposure to Crawford was when he hosted SNL in season 2, butchering J. Edgar Hoover as Dan Akroyd does likewise with Nixon. So for whatever it's worth, that's the Crawford I grew up with...
 
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First reading about it in Cohn's biography surprised me too. As for John Wayne, whenever he was asked about Cohn, he was honestly describing the co-founder of Columbia Pictures as a son of a bitch, and always enjoyed telling Cohn off when he wanted to borrow Wayne for a movie.

My actual first exposure to Crawford was when he hosted SNL in season 2, butchering J. Edgar Hoover as Dan Akroyd does likewise with Nixon. So for whatever it's worth, that's the Crawford I grew up with...
Just for shits and giggles, you should try to see if U-tube has any of the old "Highway Patrol" shows available and view a couple. His acting, if you want to call it that, is flat out cringe worthy.

ETA: Just checked, and they are available in full length on U-tube.
 
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Duo

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Just for shits and giggles, you should try to see if U-tube has any of the old "Highway Patrol" shows available and view a couple. His acting, if you want to call it that, is flat out cringe worthy.

ETA: Just checked, and they are available in full length on U-tube.
Thanks. I'll check them out.

Regarding my segue tangent to Kim Novak, her given name is Marilyn, so of course she had to change it for the movies, and fought with Cohn over what to change it to. Like Shelley Winters, she said she didn't think MM had the strong and convenient family connections to fall back on for support. I do think Kim blew it in having fat implants stuffed in her face (as if her equine veterinarian husband had done it). Since she's in shape from horseback riding, and simply looked like an older version of herself, she either should have been content with that, or obtained a competent facial restoration surgeon. (Of course being bipolar, whether treated or not, doesn't necessarily lend one to make the best judgments, but she wouldn't have made a full recovery from breast cancer at her age if not in excellent physical condition either.) At least she managed to get away from that scene Monroe was inescapably trapped in. (What else could MM do aside from being a movie celebrity? She didn't just have a strong family to fall back on, she had painting art as her childhood dream.)
 

Honeybee

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No, I have NOT seen those commercials. (Again, bear in mind I really haven't been interested in her since before the advent of the internet. It was a celebrity autopsy documentary exposing Engleberg's lies about not prescribing her chloral hydrate which is largely responsible for my current resurgence of interest here.)

What kind of mother might she have been? Fiercely protective for one thing, I believe. In sharp contrast to her usual movie delivery and tone used in those commercials, she flashes anger with a moment of what might have been her true voice, when George Cukor distracts her as she's working with kids on "Something's Got To Give." The way she says "Yes!" to him at 0:27 then immediately follows with a smile and reassuring "You will" to one of the children provides a rare instance of her being protective instead of vulnerable. There are audio recordings of her speaking in her true voice, but nothing out of character on camera like that "Yes!" she unloads here. (Cukor was abusive, as outtakes make clear, not directing but harassing. After being happy with her experience and the outcome of "Bus Stop," I think MM's tolerance for mistreatment was shot.):


Here are what the children in that scene had to say about her years later.:

I've never seen that outtake before or the interviews with the children. I believe she would've been a great mother as that is what she wanted more than anything but was never able to have any children of her own. Having a child would've more than likely changed the course of her life.
MM1.jpgMM2.jpg
MM3.jpgMM4.jpgLast photo while alive
 
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