Reports of gunfire on London Bridge

May 26, 2013
2,567
2,561
That will happen when you kill people.

Lee Rigby killers were given a whole life sentence and 45 years minimum respectively.

That wasn't a problem, was it?
And if they had been apprehended before carrying out their attacks you think they deserve extra leniency becuase they were prevented from going through with it?

I think you'll find you're very much in a minority here with this opinion. Some crimes are so serious and so abhorrent that the perpetrators need to be locked up for life. Fanatics who are hell bent on committing mass murder definitely fall under this category. It should certainly be longer than 6 years ffs. What really is your point here?

And if you're trying to pretend that the reactions from the people I qouted wouldn't be very different had this been a far-right terrorist, then you're not fooling anyone.
 
May 19, 2013
6,297
3,800
And if they had been apprehended before carrying out their attacks you think they deserve extra leniency becuase they were prevented from going through with it?

I think you'll find you're very much in a minority here with this opinion. Some crimes are so serious and so abhorrent that the perpetrators need to be locked up for life. Fanatics who are hell bent on committing mass murder definitely fall under this category. It should certainly be longer than 6 years ffs. What really is your point here?

And if you're trying to pretend that the reactions from the people I qouted wouldn't be very different had this been a far-right terrorist, then you're not fooling anyone.
In this case, Usman Khan was not found guilty of planning an attack in the UK. Do you even know the case?

You must feel very conflicted that a rehabilitated prisoner who slit the throat of a girl with special needs was one of the heroes who subdued him?
 

Haggis

CHB World Championship People's Champion
May 16, 2013
35,665
12,639
@onourway What are the main benefits of bothering to rehabilitate a terrorist and do they outweigh the risks of failure?
Well one benefit is that if he's rehabilitated, he's not in prison radicalising other inmates. Indeed, he can be used in anti-radicalisation efforts, since he has credibility.

:hat
 

Jack McW

Lets get Brexit done !!!
Nov 23, 2014
3,297
2,357
Well one benefit is that if he's rehabilitated, he's not in prison radicalising other inmates. Indeed, he can be used in anti-radicalisation efforts, since he has credibility.

:hat
I would have them in solidarity 24 hours a day.

The anti-radicalisation argument is about the only rational line of thinking for ‘de-radicalisation’ that makes sense.. but one that isnt worth the risk in my opinion
 
May 19, 2013
6,297
3,800
Answer my question first and i will then happily answer this
If you don't rehabiltate them then you end up with a situation where they will re-engage in violence and attempt to indoctrinate others. This includes their time in prison and when they are released.
 

Jack

P4P Star
Jul 29, 2012
8,274
2,163
What data is there to suggest you can rehabilitate a drug dealer, but not a terrorist? What is there to indicate that ideology holds a greater sway than money? A pocket of people are obsessed with their ideology, the world is obsessed with money.
Of course it is but nobody is obsessed with money enough to commit a suicide attack, that shows you that their mindset is on a completely different level. It's the ultimate sacrifice and no drug dealer would make it whereas every single extremist would, if they had the means to do it.

You also need to look at the extent of the problem. There are 207 people in prison for terrorism related offences in the UK. There's hundreds of thousands of people in prison for drug offences.
That just shows how inefficient and weak the policing is because there are 20,000-25,000 known extremists living in the UK, with 3,000 considered to be a direct threat by MI5. Those people should not be allowed to roam the streets, so whilst the 207 number is small, the problem with extremism in Britain is far more significant.

I don't see the need for comparison though. Drug dealers should also be facing far longer sentences,under harsher prison conditions. The fact that we have people in prison who are allowed to live alongside people they knew on the street, can wear their own clothes, can have TV, music, game consoles etc., is just ridiculous. Prison is soft and your average drug dealer doesn't fear it, which is a problem. As you said, the fact they can actually make money whilst in there is just ridiculous too, people are smoking weed in prisons and yet nothing happens about it.
 
May 19, 2013
6,297
3,800
Of course it is but nobody is obsessed with money enough to commit a suicide attack, that shows you that their mindset is on a completely different level. It's the ultimate sacrifice and no drug dealer would make it whereas every single extremist would, if they had the means to do it.

That just shows how inefficient and weak the policing is because there are 20,000-25,000 known extremists living in the UK, with 3,000 considered to be a direct threat by MI5. Those people should not be allowed to roam the streets, so whilst the 207 number is small, the problem with extremism in Britain is far more significant.

I don't see the need for comparison though. Drug dealers should also be facing far longer sentences,under harsher prison conditions. The fact that we have people in prison who are allowed to live alongside people they knew on the street, can wear their own clothes, can have TV, music, game consoles etc., is just ridiculous. Prison is soft and your average drug dealer doesn't fear it, which is a problem. As you said, the fact they can actually make money whilst in there is just ridiculous too, people are smoking weed in prisons and yet nothing happens about it.
People are obsessed with money enough to kill people over it and go to jail for life. They're also obsessed enough to risk killing innocent people in the process.

You can't arrest and imprison people for being deemed a potential threat.

You're not acknowledging the fact that drugs are far more damaging to lives and society than terrorism. They're on completely different scales. This is why I find the tough talk on terrorism as just appealing to thickos, there are far more pressing criminal matters.

Terrorism often has no impact on anyone or anything, then we get sporadic issues which lead to injuries and deaths.

Drugs leads to deaths. It also leads to ASB, shoplifting, domesic violence, assaults, intimidation, no go areas, burglaries, people trafficking, prostitution etc.
 

Haggis

CHB World Championship People's Champion
May 16, 2013
35,665
12,639
Of course it is but nobody is obsessed with money enough to commit a suicide attack, that shows you that their mindset is on a completely different level. It's the ultimate sacrifice and no drug dealer would make it whereas every single extremist would, if they had the means to do it.

That just shows how inefficient and weak the policing is because there are 20,000-25,000 known extremists living in the UK, with 3,000 considered to be a direct threat by MI5. Those people should not be allowed to roam the streets, so whilst the 207 number is small, the problem with extremism in Britain is far more significant.

I don't see the need for comparison though. Drug dealers should also be facing far longer sentences,under harsher prison conditions. The fact that we have people in prison who are allowed to live alongside people they knew on the street, can wear their own clothes, can have TV, music, game consoles etc., is just ridiculous. Prison is soft and your average drug dealer doesn't fear it, which is a problem. As you said, the fact they can actually make money whilst in there is just ridiculous too, people are smoking weed in prisons and yet nothing happens about it.
So the moral of the story is that you think it's better for society if prison sentences are more common, if the terms of confinement are longer and the prison conditions are more brutal?

:hat
 

Jack

P4P Star
Jul 29, 2012
8,274
2,163
You're not acknowledging the fact that drugs are far more damaging to lives and society than terrorism. They're on completely different scales. This is why I find the tough talk on terrorism as just appealing to thickos, there are far more pressing criminal matters.
Terrorism has many hidden effects though. Think about the assault on free speech that we've seen since the disgraceful Salman Rushdie incident, the coverage of the Danish cartoons and the absolute cowardice of the British press since Charlie Hebdo. When you're doing a tally of the effects of terrorism and the effects of drug dealing, this won't be considered, yet think about how profoundly damaging the assault on free speech has been on British press, purely out of fear of repercussion.

There's no question about how damaging drug dealing is but the effect of terrorism isn't limited to just the bodies on the streets, it has significantly damaged a core principle of Western democracies.

Terrorism often has no impact on anyone or anything, then we get sporadic issues which lead to injuries and deaths.
This is not accurate in the slightest. There are many by products of terrorism, such as a limitation of free speech, and to give another example, think about the cost of security. You can't go to any major site in the country without seeing bollards erected, increased security, armed security and so on. Britain today is a far difference place than pre-7/7 and the cost of that is astronomical so again, you can't just look at the effect of terrorism as being the bodies on the street. It has a massive effect on society at large.
 
Reactions: Jack McW and Haggis

Jack

P4P Star
Jul 29, 2012
8,274
2,163
So the moral of the story is that you think it's better for society if prison sentences are more common, if the terms of confinement are longer and the prison conditions are more brutal?

:hat
In many cases, yes. As I've said before, I'd be harsher on prisoners who can't be reformed or don't deserve to be, whereas those who can be reformed should be given far more opportunities to do so, with drug rehabilitation, education and so on.