Reports of gunfire on London Bridge

Haggis

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May 16, 2013
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In many cases, yes. As I've said before, I'd be harsher on prisoners who can't be reformed or don't deserve to be, whereas those who can be reformed should be given far more opportunities to do so, with drug rehabilitation, education and so on.
Who do you put in charge of deciding who can and who cannot be reformed?

:hat
 

TFG

Jul 23, 2013
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In many cases, yes. As I've said before, I'd be harsher on prisoners who can't be reformed or don't deserve to be, whereas those who can be reformed should be given far more opportunities to do so, with drug rehabilitation, education and so on.
So how many tax payer funded years in Prison are you giving someone selling weed (A drug that should clearly be legal) and how does the rehabilitation work?
 
May 19, 2013
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Terrorism has many hidden effects though. Think about the assault on free speech that we've seen since the disgraceful Salman Rushdie incident, the coverage of the Danish cartoons and the absolute cowardice of the British press since Charlie Hebdo. When you're doing a tally of the effects of terrorism and the effects of drug dealing, this won't be considered, yet think about how profoundly damaging the assault on free speech has been on British press, purely out of fear of repercussion.

There's no question about how damaging drug dealing is but the effect of terrorism isn't limited to just the bodies on the streets, it has significantly damaged a core principle of Western democracies.

This is not accurate in the slightest. There are many by products of terrorism, such as a limitation of free speech, and to give another example, think about the cost of security. You can't go to any major site in the country without seeing bollards erected, increased security, armed security and so on. Britain today is a far difference place than pre-7/7 and the cost of that is astronomical so again, you can't just look at the effect of terrorism as being the bodies on the street. It has a massive effect on society at large.
You can't pin changes to 'free speech' on terrorism. There's loads of factors impacting on free speech.

I'm sorry, but the cost of bollards doesn't compare to the impact of a crackhead breaking in to your house to feed the habit.

I've just given you a list of violence, intimidation, prostitution, trafficking, burglaries etc and you come back with bollards :lol::lol::clap
 

Jack

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Who do you put in charge of deciding who can and who cannot be reformed?

:hat
I don't think it's something that needs psychological analysis in most cases, I think the crimes make it obvious enough. A serial rapist cannot be reformed, nor can a paedophile, and in many cases, a murderer, a violent gang member or an extremist shouldn't be given the resources to be reformed. In these cases, prison shouldn't just be used as somewhere to house these people but as a punishment too, something that they genuinely want to avoid. At the moment, prisons in this country are too soft, places where you can mix with friends from the outside, with TVs, music and so on, which is fundamentally wrong.

A prison term should be a deterrent, not just from the loss of freedom, but the quality of life inside.
 
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Clarence Worley

leaner than mandy...
Nov 19, 2018
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You can't pin changes to 'free speech' on terrorism. There's loads of factors impacting on free speech.

I'm sorry, but the cost of bollards doesn't compare to the impact of a crackhead breaking in to your house to feed the habit.

I've just given you a list of violence, intimidation, prostitution, trafficking, burglaries etc and you come back with bollards :lol::lol::clap
I’d say a fair % if Muslims in jail are there for all the offences mentioned

Especially selling drugs
 
May 19, 2013
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I think the crimes make it obvious enough. A serial rapist cannot be reformed, nor can a paedophile, a murderer, a violent gang member or an extremist.
All of them can be reformed and there's countless examples of them being reformed.
 

Jack

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You can't pin changes to 'free speech' on terrorism. There's loads of factors impacting on free speech.
Nothing has affected the mainstream coverage of these acts moreso than the threat of violent repercussion.

I've just given you a list of violence, intimidation, prostitution, trafficking, burglaries etc and you come back with bollards :lol::lol::clap
Because I hoped you weren't a child who needed everything spelling out to you. Obviously I'm wrong.

Social disruption, political conflict, mass protests, anti-Muslim violence, use of police resources, use of intelligence resources, military intervention abroad, diplomatic relations with foreign nations, loss of tourism revenue, cost of sharing information, community disengagement and many others are far more widespread and problematic to society than the cases of "prostitution", which limits very few people. The bigggest impact though is the fear that is now present in peoples minds as they travel to sites around the conutry, knowing that an attack is always a possibility...that's something that's in everyones thoughts around Christmas with the markets etc., and far bigger than any of the localised cases that you want to mention.

Again though, I'm not even disagreeing with you on the cost of drug dealing. I'm against it, so I'm not sure why you keep trying to move the goalposts to this topic when I don't disagree with you. I do disagree but your whole argument of drug dealing is worse is just odd because nobody is saying it shouldn't be addressed.
 

Haggis

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May 16, 2013
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I don't think it's something that needs psychological analysis in most cases, I think the crimes make it obvious enough. A serial rapist cannot be reformed, nor can a paedophile, and in many cases, a murderer, a violent gang member or an extremist shouldn't be given the resources to be reformed. In these cases, prison shouldn't just be used as somewhere to house these people but as a punishment too, something that they genuinely want to avoid. At the moment, prisons in this country are too soft, places where you can mix with friends from the outside, with TVs, music and so on, which is fundamentally wrong.

A prison term should be a deterrent, not just from the loss of freedom, but the quality of life inside.
Anthony Joshua was a violent gang member.

:hat
 

Jack

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Anthony Joshua was a violent gang member.

:hat
I have edited that post to clarify, I wasn't specific enough.

Someone like Joshua is just a classic example of someone who is decent yet just fell into a bad crowd and could go onto something positive in life, he's not the sort that I'm talking about, who's a repeat offender and has always just reverted to criminal behaviour and violence when on the outside. The people like Joshua should be supported by the judicial system and given the access to things they've been lacking in order to make the most out of their ability - be soft with them, enroll them into good education services, give them mentors on the outside, get them access to gyms, let them volunteer in difference environments to change that mentality they have. They aren't without hope and we shouldn't treat them as such.

It's impossible to get into an argument on here as to who can and who can't be reformed, so it's one that I'm not going to get dragged into but my stance on this is simple; for the people who can change, given them all the help they need, whereas those who can't, punish them with longer, harder sentences.
 
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Haggis

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May 16, 2013
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I have edited that post to clarify, I wasn't specific enough.

Someone like Joshua is just a classic example of someone who is decent yet just fell into a bad crowd and could go onto something positive in life, he's not the sort that I'm talking about, who's a repeat offender and has always just reverted to criminal behaviour and violence when on the outside. The people like Joshua should be supported by the judicial system and given the access to things they've been lacking in order to make the most out of their ability - be soft with them, enroll them into good education services, give them mentors on the outside, get them access to gyms, let them volunteer in difference environments to change that mentality they have. They aren't without hope and we shouldn't treat them as such.

It's impossible to get into an argument on here as to who can and who can't be reformed, so it's one that I'm not going to get dragged into but my stance on this is simple; for the people who can change, given them all the help they need, whereas those who can't, punish them with longer, harder sentences.
Not having a go at you - but who is in charge of determining who can be rehabilitated, and who can't?

:hat
 

Jack

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Not having a go at you - but who is in charge of determining who can be rehabilitated, and who can't?

:hat
Well, to deal with it the simple way, there are people who already do that job now, the same people who pass down a sentence in the first place and then those who look at the behaviour of prisoners and assess whether they can be released. If a person acts in a certain way that makes a judge think that they can be reformed, that'd be on them to send them to the appropriate facility to follow through on that character reformation, but if not, the judge would have the right to punish the offender and not allow them to go through that rehabilitation process. It's really not different to how it works at the moment, where offenders are sent to different category prisons, or how you've got things like Supermax in America.
 

Haggis

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May 16, 2013
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Well, to deal with it the simple way, there are people who already do that job now, the same people who pass down a sentence in the first place and then those who look at the behaviour of prisoners and assess whether they can be released. If a person acts in a certain way that makes a judge think that they can be reformed, that'd be on them to send them to the appropriate facility to follow through on that character reformation, but if not, the judge would have the right to punish the offender and not allow them to go through that rehabilitation process. It's really not different to how it works at the moment, where offenders are sent to different category prisons, or how you've got things like Supermax in America.
Right.

But you aren't impressed with the people who currently make those decisions.

So they would have to be changed, right?

Or just the guidelines?

In which case - who sets the new guidelines? People who are all in favour of longer sentences in more brutal prisons, generally aren't also in favour of more focus on rehabilitation rather than retribution.

:hat