So abortion is now illegal in Alabama...

Jun 4, 2013
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So an 11 year old gets raped by her father and the law forces her to have the retard baby. Fuck that shit.
So the exception makes the rule? An extremely anomalous case sets the standard, ignore the millions of lives snuffed out by selfish motives?
Let’s entertain your absurd case and extend it. So abortion is a casual occurrence, what gives a rapist more room to keep raping? If evidence (a baby) can be removed and destroyed in a never ending cycle, where does the evidence to prosecute that person come from? Is a retard baby more likely to stop further related babies as a result of rape? Most likely yes. So what you’re essentially asking for is more rape.
 

Haggis

CHB World Championship People's Champion
May 16, 2013
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So the exception makes the rule? An extremely anomalous case sets the standard, ignore the millions of lives snuffed out by selfish motives?
Let’s entertain your absurd case and extend it. So abortion is a casual occurrence, what gives a rapist more room to keep raping? If evidence (a baby) can be removed and destroyed in a never ending cycle, where does the evidence to prosecute that person come from? Is a retard baby more likely to stop further related babies as a result of rape? Most likely yes. So what you’re essentially asking for is more rape.

Jesus Christ, this is easily the worst post of the day.

:hat
 
Jun 4, 2013
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It doesn't necessarily. It also stops a fertilised egg from attaching to the uterus.
That is it’s primary and only established purpose, it MAY at times inhibit implantation of a fertilised egg in the endometrium. Best available evidence suggests that they prevent pregnancy not by interfering with post-fertilisation events.
 
Jun 4, 2013
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Agreed, but I am not against abortion, I am against abortions that are of actual babies. Like @Dealt_with with pointed out, this is not a simple dichotomy, and unfortunately it is usually presented as one. It's always either "I support a woman's right" or "I oppose abortion" and people then try to pigeon hole you into one of these regardless of how nuanced your view is.

I do not think that an abortion before 12 weeks is remotely killing a baby. There is a reason why doctors tell potential parents not to announce a pregnancy until 12 weeks, which is that before that point about 1 in 4 of all pregnancies miscarry, and estimates put a figure between 50-75% of all pregnancies ending on their own before 5 weeks. Many women never even know they're pregnant before it is "self aborted" by the body.

That said, you abort at 24 weeks...and yes, you're killing a baby. You abort at 21 weeks, and chances are it is not a baby that could survive outside the womb on its own, but it is still a baby, and it will feel pain. Personally, I would lower the limit to 21 weeks at least, which is a big move in terms of what is accepted and in terms of people who would think it was a gradual attempt to remove the right. I would feel more comfortable with a limit of 18 weeks, as this is scientifically a good cut off point for when hormonal reactions to pain stimuli can be observed, and it is also way before any foetus could ever be viable.

I categorically reject the notion that an abortion at 2 months or 10 weeks is killing a baby.
Where are your statistics from? I haven’t seen estimates of 50-75% and what is the difference between a miscarriage and ‘self-abortion’ by the body?
 

Haggis

CHB World Championship People's Champion
May 16, 2013
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It is tongue in cheek, designed to highlight the absurdity of indulging in anomalies when the conversation is in the context of general principles.
Okay. :thumbsup

Tough to tell, since that is exactly the type of argument that many conservative types like to advance about abortion, guns etc.

:hat
 
Jun 4, 2013
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more often than not people get stuck with either side of this argument, when like most things the truth is in the middle somewhere. Abortion should not be illegal but we also shouldn't be aborting babies after 20 weeks. There is a way to be nuanced about things. Use your noggins people.
 
Jun 4, 2012
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Where are your statistics from? I haven’t seen estimates of 50-75% and what is the difference between a miscarriage and ‘self-abortion’ by the body?
A miscarriage would be when the woman is aware she is pregnant. No difference in real terms, but a woman who is pregnant, never realises and loses the fertilised egg before she knows would not be counted in typical miscarriage statistics. More info on rates etc here...

https://americanpregnancy.org/pregnancy-complications/miscarriage/

More here...variations in figures, but all statistically relevant...

https://www.tommys.org/our-organisation/charity-research/pregnancy-statistics/miscarriage
 
Jun 4, 2013
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more often than not people get stuck with either side of this argument, when like most things the truth is in the middle somewhere. Abortion should not be illegal but we also shouldn't be aborting babies after 20 weeks. There is a way to be nuanced about things. Use your noggins people.
So why isn’t 21 weeks okay? 19 weeks? That’s a very arbitrary way of deciding whether a human being will exist outside of the womb or not. That decision can’t be made if there’s no reason to think that mother and baby will be harmed. That means you are ending a life due to convenience. That has to be morally wrong whether you’re religious or not. If you say abortion shouldn’t be illegal then you are picking a side to get stuck on. I think it should be illegal unless mother and baby are at a significant health risk. Then I think that eradicates the arbitrary nature of defining when a life is a life, a baby could be aborted at anytime (the sooner the better and multiple medical opinions should be sought) and we can have the logical marker of the beginning of life as being at conception.
 
Jun 4, 2013
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A miscarriage would be when the woman is aware she is pregnant. No difference in real terms, but a woman who is pregnant, never realises and loses the fertilised egg before she knows would not be counted in typical miscarriage statistics. More info on rates etc here...

https://americanpregnancy.org/pregnancy-complications/miscarriage/

More here...variations in figures, but all statistically relevant...

https://www.tommys.org/our-organisation/charity-research/pregnancy-statistics/miscarriage
As per the first link the 50-75% figure is percentage of chemical pregnancy miscarriages, out of the estimated 10-25% (total) of miscarriages.

The second link has 1 in 5 recognised pregnancies (20%) and taking into account unnoticed pregancies (not sure how they determine that but anyway) they say 1 in 4 (25%).

So a miscarriage and a self abortion is the same thing, and all the estimates put it at around the 20-25% mark if I’m being generous. So let’s wipe these 70-80% figures off the table now, those percentages are the probability of you having a baby after having conceived. As I said to someone else it would be absurd if evolution had equipped us with such a low chance of achieving our predominant purpose after we had done all the work and hit the target.
 
Jun 4, 2012
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As per the first link the 50-75% figure is percentage of chemical pregnancy miscarriages, out of the estimated 10-25% (total) of miscarriages.

The second link has 1 in 5 recognised pregnancies (20%) and taking into account unnoticed pregancies (not sure how they determine that but anyway) they say 1 in 4 (25%).

So a miscarriage and a self abortion is the same thing, and all the estimates put it at around the 20-25% mark if I’m being generous. So let’s wipe these 70-80% figures off the table now, those percentages are the probability of you having a baby after having conceived. As I said to someone else it would be absurd if evolution had equipped us with such a low chance of achieving our predominant purpose after we had done all the work and hit the target.
Yeah, I misread the figures on that, so yes...10-25% would be a better figure. Miscarriage and self abortion would be the same indeed, I had assumed that miscarriage figures were put down for recognised pregnancies and spontaneous abortions were distinct in that they could (and do) occur in women who don't realise, but looking through the sources for those figures, it's just not very well worded, and yes it's one and the same, and a figure of 10-25% is more accurate.
 
Reactions: Dealt_with
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About 80% of all conceptions are aborted naturally. Try caring about kids that have been born instead kids that might be born. America is every bit as bad as the Middle East when it comes religious fundamentalism.

I hate that shit. You don't have to believe in God to know that abortion is wrong.

The pro abortion side never has a good argument and showing them a picture of a 2 month old unborn baby ( reality ) sends them scurrying. They try to block that wherever they can.

100% of people will die naturally. Is it okay to murder someone?
 
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It depends on degrees, when a child is viable. I don't think your presupposition that it is about religious fundamentalism is valid, and I don't think you can only care about kids born versus kids that might be born. How about we care about them all? There's a big difference between something that occurs naturally, and smashing the skull of a 20 week old baby and sucking the remains out with a vacuum. Everybody seems to take a dichotomous view on issues like this.

.............................
 

steviebruno

CHB NYC Delegate
Jun 5, 2013
13,332
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Of all conceptions only 1/5 isn't destroyed naturally. That's includes all scenarios from the fertilized egg not attaching to the uterus to stillborn babies. So when the religious fanatics that are mainstream in the US argue that life begins at conception, they not mentioning this part.
A fetus dying because they are at a higher risk until they develop to a certain point isn't the body 'destroying' its offspring. What a weird, evil sort of interpretation.
 
Jun 4, 2013
7,103
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Albuquerque, NM
So why isn’t 21 weeks okay? 19 weeks? That’s a very arbitrary way of deciding whether a human being will exist outside of the womb or not. That decision can’t be made if there’s no reason to think that mother and baby will be harmed. That means you are ending a life due to convenience. That has to be morally wrong whether you’re religious or not. If you say abortion shouldn’t be illegal then you are picking a side to get stuck on. I think it should be illegal unless mother and baby are at a significant health risk. Then I think that eradicates the arbitrary nature of defining when a life is a life, a baby could be aborted at anytime (the sooner the better and multiple medical opinions should be sought) and we can have the logical marker of the beginning of life as being at conception.
The chance of a fetus surviving outside of the womb at 20 week is 0 percent. What's your solution? Force everyone that is sexually active to have babies?
 
Jun 4, 2012
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The pro abortion side never has a good argument and showing them a picture of a 2 month old unborn baby ( reality ) sends them scurrying.
No they don't, because those are not the images ever used to shock people. At 2 months and 4 days you have this...



It has no capacity to feel pain, it does not even have the cells in the central nervous system that are needed to register pain, let alone the neural development to do so. The images I know you are talking about are late term.
 
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No they don't, because those are not the images ever used to shock people. At 2 months and 4 days you have this...



And that is blown up, size wise it's about the size of a raspberry. It has no capacity to feel pain, it does not even have the cells in the central nervous system that are needed to register pain, let alone the neural development to do so. The images I know you are talking about are late term.

I am talking about that. That is a powerful image and it is alive.
 

Pimp C

#LionsOnly
Jun 3, 2013
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You know this is what I hate about Republicans/Conservatives they're always going on about less government intervention in your life but will then try and tell you that you can't gamble and online sports betting should be illegal, weed should be illegal and abortion should illegal but yet they love the shit outta some guns. The hypocrisy is simply too much to bear.
 

Haggis

CHB World Championship People's Champion
May 16, 2013
34,121
11,395
You know this is what I hate about Republicans/Conservatives they're always going on about less government intervention in your life but will then try and tell you that you can't gamble and online sports betting should be illegal, weed should be illegal and abortion should illegal but yet they love the shit outta some guns. The hypocrisy is simply too much to bear.
That is one of the most infuriating things about them. The baldfaced hypocrisy is routine, and their mindless cheerbots don't even care (or aren't smart and/or honest enough to even see it.)

:hat
 
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