The 10 Greatest Bantams of All Time

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Flea Man

'Nak Muay Sakon: The Boxers of Thailand 1946-1996'
Jun 2, 2012
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@Vic do you think it’s fair; Harada>Jofre at bantam? I think we have always agreed that he should be higher P4P, but the consensus has always been that Jofre is higher ranked at bantamweight.
 

Vic

Jun 7, 2012
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1,399
@Vic do you think it’s fair; Harada>Jofre at bantam? I think we have always agreed that he should be higher P4P, but the consensus has always been that Jofre is higher ranked at bantamweight.
You know, Flea, I was going to ask you that, but I do think it´s fair, after all... can we really say Jofre was shot or anything like that during those two fights ?

No. Really. No...
The decisions were good too...... maybe the rematch in Brazil would be more fair, different athsmophere, Jofre fought very well at home.. he was struggling with weight and... in the end, it´s fair either way.

Dominance and longevity against more quality wins.

So in reality I can´t really say much to argue with you on that... (I, generally, prefer a dominant champion when ranking by weight, unless his opposition is super awful... but it´s a preference, I know I´m in a minority that think that way)
And, also... I gotta say, that you know about all this stuff better than me so if you say so.. who am I to make a big case against it?
I´m not being fakely humble just because I´m your friend, btw.. no, it is what it is... maybe if we were discussing Muay Thai :yep (yeah sure :lol::wall)

I´m very curious to see who is your number 1.
 
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Flea Man

'Nak Muay Sakon: The Boxers of Thailand 1946-1996'
Jun 2, 2012
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You know, Flea, I was going to ask you that, but I do think it´s fair, after all... can we really say Jofre was shot or anything like that during those two fights ?

No. Really. No...
The decisions were good too...... maybe the rematch in Brazil would be more fair, different athsmophere, Jofre fought very well at home.. he was struggling with weight and... in the end, it´s fair either way.

Dominance and longevity against more quality wins.

So in reality I can´t really say much to argue with you on that... (I, generally, prefer a dominant champion when ranking by weight, unless his opposition is super awful... but it´s a preference, I know I´m in a minority that think that way)
And, also... I gotta say, that you know about all this stuff better than me so if you say so.. who am I to make a big case against it?
I´m not being fakely humble just because I´m your friend, btw.. no, it is what it is... maybe if we were discussing Muay Thai :yep (yeah sure :lol::wall)

I´m very curious to see who is your number 1.
You’re not being fake humble but you are being modest! The fact I namedropped you in my Jofre piece speaks volumes of your knowledge!
 
Reactions: Vic
Jun 10, 2013
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How have you enjoyed the others mate?
Yes, very enjoyable and informative reads.

Regarding Jofre and Harada, I would probably rank Jofre higher though, based largely on being more decisive in beating roughly the same level of competition (if not the same fighters) and also the manner in which Harada was beaten by Rose.
 
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Flea Man

'Nak Muay Sakon: The Boxers of Thailand 1946-1996'
Jun 2, 2012
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Yes, very enjoyable and informative reads.

Regarding Jofre and Harada, I would probably rank Jofre higher though, based largely on being more decisive in beating roughly the same level of competition (if not the same fighters) and also the manner in which Harada was beaten by Rose.
I did acknowledge that in my summary. Harada bearing Rudkin, who arguably beat Rose, elevates that win a little bit more as it shows Harada was not just a stopgap champion.

For me, the ultimate decider was Harada 2-0 against Jofre. Jofre has nothing like a win of that quality (which is how I started the piece on him) and that far outweighs Harada’s loss to Rose, who of course is a top 10 bantam himself.

It’s a tricky one for sure. Always is when you’re weighing up the quality of fighters this darn great!
 
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If I had to put together a list of the top bantams, I think it would look something like this:

1. Dixon
2. Olivares
3. Jofre
4. Brown
5. Ortiz
6. Zarate
7. McGovern
8. Memphis Pal Moore
9. Herman
10. Harada
11. Joe Lynch
12. Kid Williams
13. Raf Herrera
14. Rose
15. Carruthers

Very difficult to assess the ones pre-60s, due to the scarcity of film and/or difficulty in assessing the quality of opposition.
 

Flea Man

'Nak Muay Sakon: The Boxers of Thailand 1946-1996'
Jun 2, 2012
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If I had to put together a list of the top bantams, I think it would look something like this:

1. Dixon
2. Olivares
3. Jofre
4. Brown
5. Ortiz
6. Zarate
7. McGovern
8. Memphis Pal Moore
9. Herman
10. Harada
11. Joe Lynch
12. Kid Williams
13. Raf Herrera
14. Rose
15. Carruthers

Very difficult to assess the ones pre-60s, due to the scarcity of film and/or difficulty in assessing the quality of opposition.
What would get Dixon that high? I’d rank him at 122, not many of his defences took place between 115-118 (this is going by my criteria of course, you may have an entirely different way of assessing the bantams)
 

Flea Man

'Nak Muay Sakon: The Boxers of Thailand 1946-1996'
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Also I love Carruthers and at his best he was a monster, but his short prime (tape worm and ‘retirement’) and relatively weak resume would keep him out of my top 20.
 

DBerry

complete and utter prick
Jun 11, 2013
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'Straya, cunt.
Also I love Carruthers and at his best he was a monster, but his short prime (tape worm and ‘retirement’) and relatively weak resume would keep him out of my top 20.
This post prompted me to have a look at his record in boxrec, these names probably don’t mean anything to you but I was surprised to see that Carruthers had two KO victories over Vic Toweel, a fantastic Aussie champion in his own right, for the Commonwealth championship when that title was almost as good as the world title. Vic’s nephew Paul Toweel was also a fantastic local boxer, amassing a record of 29-10 at super welter.

Jimmy Carruthers also beat Bobby Sinn, a great indigenous boxer from Queensland, Bobby holding both the Aussie Bantamweight and Aussie featherweight titles a few times over his career along with a tilt at the Commonwealth Bantamweight title, losing to the champion on points, Bobby had a stoppage win over Russel Sands, another domestic hero from the heyday of boxing in Australia, for Sand’s Australian featherweight title.

I see Jimmy was stopped by ‘Gentleman’ Don Johnson, an American featherweight who dropped a decision to Lionel Rose.

Have you heard of an Aussie indigenous featherweight boxer by the name of Cliff Samardin, Flee? If not, have a look into him, here’s a start http://boxrec.com/en/boxer/16831
 
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Flea Man

'Nak Muay Sakon: The Boxers of Thailand 1946-1996'
Jun 2, 2012
20,266
2,485
Thornhill
www.youtube.com
This post prompted me to have a look at his record in boxrec, these names probably don’t mean anything to you but I was surprised to see that Carruthers had two KO victories over Vic Toweel, a fantastic Aussie champion in his own right, for the Commonwealth championship when that title was almost as good as the world title. Vic’s nephew Paul Toweel was also a fantastic local boxer, amassing a record of 29-10 at super welter.

Jimmy Carruthers also beat Bobby Sinn, a great indigenous boxer from Queensland, Bobby holding both the Aussie Bantamweight and Aussie featherweight titles a few times over his career along with a tilt at the Commonwealth Bantamweight title, losing to the champion on points, Bobby had a stoppage win over Russel Sands, another domestic hero from the heyday of boxing in Australia, for Sand’s Australian featherweight title.

I see Jimmy was stopped by ‘Gentleman’ Don Johnson, an American featherweight who dropped a decision to Lionel Rose.

Have you heard of an Aussie indigenous featherweight boxer by the name of Cliff Samardin, Flee? If not, have a look into him, here’s a start http://boxrec.com/en/boxer/16831
I’ve not heard of Samardin, but I know heaps about Sinn and Toweel (Toweel was South African and beat Manuel Ortiz for the title) as I’ve researched Carruthers extensively.
 
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DBerry

complete and utter prick
Jun 11, 2013
37,644
12,838
47
'Straya, cunt.
I’ve not heard of Samardin, but I know heaps about Sinn and Toweel (Toweel was South African and beat Manuel Ortiz for the title) as I’ve researched Carruthers extensively.
Samardin was a fighter from the time when I was fighting as an amateur, I loved watching him box and I thought he was going on to be the next Lional Rose, he abruptly stopped having anything to do with the industry and disappeared.

If you pull the loose thread, a whole lot of domestic boxing unravels revealing some great domestic fights and fight game politics involving Fenech, Justin Rowsell, Lovemore N’dou et.al
 
Reactions: Flea Man
Jun 10, 2013
1,682
683
What would get Dixon that high? I’d rank him at 122, not many of his defences took place between 115-118
That may be true, but I think his peak years (1890-1893) were spent at 118, where he had a largely dominant run and vanquished top fighters on both sides of the Atlantic.
 
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