The Football Thread

Who will win the 2019/20 PL??


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Jul 6, 2019
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I think to play the game better than Messi is actually a physical impossibility. So I guess you're talking about achievements. Maradona was able to lift a World Cup.
I would disagree that its impossible to play better than Messi.

People felt the same about Pele and Maradona. They both pass the eye test the same way, even if Pele in particular played a different style of football.

I wouldn't even say Messi is the player who has looked most unplayable in my lifetime. Fat Ronaldo pre injuries was scary, even more than Messi.


Messi is beautiful to watch, he's effective as fuck, his personal stats and consistency are incredible, and he might be the goat. But, he's not incomparable. He has a select few peers. Imo.
 
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Tko6

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Well I don't claim to know much about Maradona and Pele's playing careers outside of the well documented stuff, but realistically they obviously weren't better than Messi. I think to play the game better than Messi is actually a physical impossibility. So I guess you're talking about achievements. Maradona was able to lift a World Cup. He dragged an average team to the top of the tree. I take those points. But where do we think Barcelona would have finished without Messi this season? If we let Messi punch the ball in the back of the net in the final against Germany, does that then make him a better player than Maradona? The midget may well have another 3-4 years at the top level, still winning things. You just can't fuck with the footage, you can't fuck with the individual statistics, and you can't fuck with the longevity and consistency.

I respect differing opinions, I just think in this particular case there is an obvious answer to the question of who the best football ever is.
I won't dispute that Messi would tear the Premier League up, and I hope we see him, but the fact is that neither him or Ronaldo would have posted these crazy stats in the 80s. They both would have been smashed to bits, especially in La Liga. Andoni 'The Butcher from Bilbao' Goikoetxea kept his football boot that destroyed Maradona's ankle on his mantlepiece lol. Flying kicks, 2 footed horror tackles, groin stamping and so on were the norm back then. That's why a lot of us old fuckers will always rate Diego as 'better', regardless of stats.
 
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Pedderrs

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I would disagree that its impossible to play better than Messi.

People felt the same about Pele and Maradona. They both pass the eye test the same way, even if Pele in particular played a different style of football.

I wouldn't even say Messi is the player who has looked most unplayable in my lifetime. Fat Ronaldo pre injuries was scary, even more than Messi.


Messi is beautiful to watch, he's effective as fuck, his personal stats and consistency are incredible, and he might be the goat. But, he's not incomparable. He has a select few peers. Imo.
I acknowledge that Ronaldo was scary good at Barcelona and Inter Milan, but I think it's spurious to say he was scarier than Messi. I am immediately skeptical of anyone who can say that with any conviction. Ronaldo was the most dangerous player in the world in the final third, his skill and pace were otherworldly, but he never controlled games like Messi did. I don't think it is accurate to say he was more unplayable.

We are talking in circles. I am of the opinion that Messi is clearly he best footballer to ever play the game, you think there is a debate to be had. We will have to agree to disagree.
 
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Pedderrs

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I won't dispute that Messi would tear the Premier League up, and I hope we see him, but the fact is that neither him or Ronaldo would have posted these crazy stats in the 80s. They both would have been smashed to bits, especially in La Liga. Andoni 'The Butcher from Bilbao' Goikoetxea kept his football boot that destroyed Maradona's ankle on his mantlepiece lol. Flying kicks, 2 footed horror tackles, groin stamping and so on were the norm back then. That's why a lot of us old fuckers will always rate Diego as 'better', regardless of stats.
That's a valid point. The game has changed over the decades. Maradona on today's pitches would have been poetry in motion.
 
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The money in today's game? Social Media? He'd kill his top level career even quicker.
Maybe. But they are watched from a young age now and looked after more because they are such big investments.

Most players these days are in playing the xbox rather than out doing booze and blow like the 80's and 90's guys.

Edit. He was a crazy guy though, and he'd probably be crazy in any era.

I'd rather be remembered for taking Coke like Diego than viagra like Pele though.
 
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Pedderrs

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Maybe. But they are watched from a young age now and looked after more because they are such big investments.

Most players these days are in playing the xbox rather than out doing booze and blow like the 80's and 90's guys.
I guess this is the problem with comparing players from different generations. The game was different, the world was different.

Perhaps we shouldn't push the idea of a GOAT. Perhaps determining the best players of their respective generations is more appropriate. and as far as we should go.
 
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I guess this is the problem with comparing players from different generations. The game was different, the world was different.

Perhaps we shouldn't push the idea of a GOAT. Perhaps determining the best players of their respective generations is more appropriate. and as far as we should go.
I think it's like boxing pfp or atg lists. It's a fun diversion, but ultimately you can't prove it definitively.

You do usually get the same names appearing at the top though.
 
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Tko6

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That's a valid point. The game has changed over the decades. Maradona on today's pitches would have been poetry in motion.
Well I'm always careful not to argue how good Maradona would be in today's game and for how long, with his personal issues and all. I just know I've seen enough football in the 70s and 80s to know that Leo and Ronaldo would have missed whole stretches of seasons through injury and wouldn't be playing much past their 30s if they even got that far. Maradona was a tough little fucker, that's for sure.
 
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Well I'm always careful not to argue how good Maradona would be in today's game and for how long, with his personal issues and all. I just know I've seen enough football in the 70s and 80s to know that Leo and Ronaldo would have missed whole stretches of seasons through injury and wouldn't be playing much past their 30s if they even got that far. Maradona was a tough little fucker, that's for sure.
No sir. You don't know that. You want to believe it.

Not the same thing.
 
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I would disagree that its impossible to play better than Messi.

People felt the same about Pele and Maradona. They both pass the eye test the same way, even if Pele in particular played a different style of football.

I wouldn't even say Messi is the player who has looked most unplayable in my lifetime. Fat Ronaldo pre injuries was scary, even more than Messi.


Messi is beautiful to watch, he's effective as fuck, his personal stats and consistency are incredible, and he might be the goat. But, he's not incomparable. He has a select few peers. Imo.
I never saw Maradona play live but I have seen enough footage and a recent documentary to see that the guy was an extremely special talent. The conditions of the pitches, the fouling opponents, the players around him and the rules back them make me wonder how good he'd been in the Barcelona side for the past ten years.

At the risk of being rebuked by the Messi-fanboys, Maradona may have been even better than Messi. He certainly would have looked 50% better than he did in the footage I've seen where violent, two-footed tackling, form behind was the norm. He really was some player and still regarded as the greatest ever by many.
 
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Tko6

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No sir. You don't know that. You want to believe it.

Not the same thing.



Vinny Jones, who wasn't even a particularly brutal player, showing the finer points of man-marking in the 80s. Other things you could expect in every game, 20 times a game are: getting your legs deliberately raked with studs, getting elbowed in the ribs at corners, full-blooded 2 footed tackles with the obligatory leaving your feet in after, criminal flying kicks a la Schumacher v Battiston (and not even getting booked for it), I could go on and on. These things aren't exceptions, as they would be today, they were the rule, every single game.

You can't even raise your elbows to contest a header these days ffs :lol:

Of course Messi and Ronaldo would have got battered and repeatedly injured. They are playing in the safest and most sanitised version of football that there has ever been, tailored specifically to protect skilful players like them, and Maradona played when it was at its very worst.
 
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Vinny Jones, who wasn't even a particularly brutal player, showing the finer points of man-marking in the 80s. Other things you could expect in every game, 20 times a game are: getting your legs deliberately raked with studs, getting elbowed in the ribs at corners, full-blooded 2 footed tackles with the obligatory leaving your feet in after, criminal flying kicks a la Schumacher v Battiston (and not even getting booked for it), I could go on and on. These things aren't exceptions, as they would be today, they were the rule, every single game.

You can't even raise your elbows to contest a header these days ffs :lol:

Of course Messi and Ronaldo would have got battered and repeatedly injured. They are playing in the safest and most sanitised version of football that there has ever been, tailored specifically to protect skilful players like them, and Maradona played when it was at its very worst.
Modern players also benefit from modern medicine and sports science.

We are therefore much better at preventing and curing what used to be career ending, or performance inhibiting injuries.

We are also much better at keeping athletes fitter for longer.

It's not just football, this is noticeable in lots of sports. Tennis being a prime example.


Now, the players still need to be lucky, and focused, and look after themselves, but it's much easier to remain fit these days.


The pitches are also worth considering. The old pitches were a disgrace and much more likely to cause injury.

 

McGrain

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Who cares really? He should have moved three years ago when he was special.
Fat Ronaldo pre injuries was scary, even more than Messi.
I agree with this.

He only really had one and half absolutely terrifying seasons but it was fucking unbelievable in patches, like watching someone play a video game, it was mental.
 
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kf3

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pele and maradona are still 1 and 2 for my money.

the 5 or 10 or 20 best players ever will always be a list of unbelievable footballers.

context of the video and stats is key imo. the guy who was the best player of his era in the best team on perfect pitches with helpful referees and who we know had drugs and failed in his national team, he's still unvelievably good.
 
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Who cares really? He should have moved three years ago when he was special.

I agree with this.

He only really had one and half absolutely terrifying seasons but it was fucking unbelievable in patches, like watching someone play a video game, it was mental.
The football equivalent of Jonah Lomu in the mid 90's.

Just ran straight through teams then put it in with either foot. Fast, strong, good balance, great finish, great touch.

It didn't last long, but from being at PSV till he got injured it was like something from another planet. Looked like an adult playing under 14's.
 
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The football equivalent of Jonah Lomu in the mid 90's.

Just ran straight through teams then put it in with either foot. Fast, strong, good balance, great finish, great touch.

It didn't last long, but from being at PSV till he got injured it was like something from another planet. Looked like an adult playing under 14's.
Highlights video. Not the best picture quality, but worth a watch.


And of course, the Compostela goal, which is worth watching just for Bobby Robson's reaction.
 
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kf3

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Highlights video. Not the best picture quality, but worth a watch.


And of course, the Compostela goal, which is worth watching just for Bobby Robson's reaction.
wow.

i know ronaldo from international and european matches. in some of those earlier clips he's a better henry rather than the better romario i had judged him to be(and that's still insanley high praise).