Tyson Fury (Lineal & WBC) vs. Deontay Wilder III

[Bob Weaver]

I had an obsession with trainers back in the day, ever since reading Angelo Dundees book "I only talk winning".. And his apprentice with elite coaches at stillmans gym.

Would obsessively read and collect articles and interviews with coaches.

I think Adam Booth is no better then a Jim Mcdonnell, but more articulate and self-confident comes across well on tv... And the weird contraptions he uses were taken by his own admission from Jorge Rubio.

And alot of social media hype on forums on him being the "Dark Lord"...helped his career.

Part of being a known trainer is also being able to engender the right kind of publicity and hype for yourself thats part of the hustle of being a trainer.

Only a select few coaches in boxing have the ability and proven track record to take on a fighter and make technical adjustments and improvements in a short space of time. ..Freddie Roach, Ronnie Shields, John David Jackson, Buddy Mcgirt, Joe Goosen, Eddie Mustafa Muhammad.. maybe one or two others.

As for the rest its just about being at the right place at the right time and good self promotion.

Adam Booth is a good coach but is he amongst the creme de la creme? I am not so sure like to see how he progresse with the likes of Josh Kelly and Harlem Eubanks to see if he is more tgen just part good coach and part great self publicist.

My thinking with Booth was mainly that they know each other, and Booth has some experience in training an explosive fighter to fight bigger men.

I also think his pre and post fight analysis was decent. Tbh though, much of what he said is widely known, so it's probably more important to get someone who Wilder might listen to, rather than what the trainer might say. A bigger, American, name might help with that.

I do think Wilder can be better, even without making changes. He was buzzed early doors and was therefore even more sloppy than usual.

For example, Ben Davison pointed out something I hadn't realised. Wilder continually went backwards lead foot first, rather than back foot like he usually does, thus he was never really set to even think of throwing.

It might have been the pressure causing him to panic, but I also think it's cause he was buzzed and not thinking clearly.

 

[Dynamito]

My thinking with Booth was mainly that they know each other, and Booth has some experience in training an explosive fighter to fight bigger men.

I also think his pre and post fight analysis was decent. Tbh though, much of what he said is widely known, so it's probably more important to get someone who Wilder might listen to, rather than what the trainer might say. A bigger, American, name might help with that.

I do think Wilder can be better, even without making changes. He was buzzed early doors and was therefore even more sloppy than usual.

For example, Ben Davison pointed out something I hadn't realised. Wilder continually went backwards lead foot first, rather than back foot like he usually does, thus he was never really set to even think of throwing.

It might have been the pressure causing him to panic, but I also think it's cause he was buzzed and not thinking clearly.

Thats the weirdest part the first thing you teach a novice fighter when he walks in the gym, is footwork and balance.

The foundations for everything are the balance and correct footwork if that is wrong everything else will be wrong all your punches will be mistimed, the defense all over the place, likewise your offense....Thats the first thing you would have written if there was a Dummies guide to boxing.

Shows how bad his team is never taught the very basics...or looked at his flaws or sought to correct them.

 

[ORG83]

Thats the weirdest part the first thing you teach a novice fighter when he walks in the gym, is footwork and balance.

The foundations for everything are the balance and correct footwork if that is wrong everything else will be wrong all your punches will be mistimed, the defense all over the place, likewise your offense....Thats the first thing you would have written if there was a Dummies guide to boxing.

Shows how bad his team is never taught the very basics...or looked at his flaws or sought to correct them.

He walked into a gym and 2 years later he won a bronze medal.

I doubt they had much time to reach him much of anything, other than someone took him on the pads and thought “fuck me!”, then set about teaching him the most basic of movement and how to throw a stiff jab and a solid 1-2, then started getting him fights.

Plus he has the legs of a giraffe, I can’t imagine it’s easy getting him balanced when he’s standing still, let alone when he’s on the move?

 

[Dynamito]

He walked into a gym and 2 years later he won a bronze medal.

I doubt they had much time to reach him much of anything, other than someone took him on the pads and thought “fuck me!”, then set about teaching him the most basic of movement and how to throw a stiff jab and a solid 1-2, then started getting him fights.

Plus he has the legs of a giraffe, I can’t imagine it’s easy getting him balanced when he’s standing still, let alone when he’s on the move?

They essentialy relied on Wilders natural athleticism. But thats no excuse, for not teaching the fundamentals.

Its dull, its boring, it takes thousands of hours of practice and repetition.

As Brendan Ingle. Said.. One of the keys to mastering the skills is getting past the boredom of repetition.

 

[ORG83]

They essentialy relied on Wilders natural athleticism. But thats no excuse, for not teaching the fundamentals.

Its dull, its boring, it takes thousands of hours of practice and repetition.

As Brendan Ingle. Said.. One of the keys to mastering the skills is getting past the boredom of repetition.

Yep absolutely spot on. It is dull and it is boring, but essential.

His story goes to show just how impressive his power is. It basically allowed Him to enjoy a career that really needed to start a decade before it did.

Which is kind why they probably never went too far into the fundamentals of footwork? Guy was 20 when he started, right? I doubt he/they considered it practical to spend 3-5 years on his footwork? Plus it’s WAY easier to learn something physical when you’re 10, rather than when your 20 odd.

I don’t see how he dramatically improves? However, the right trainer can use the results of the 2nd fight to develop and prep a gameplan that plays to his limited strengths.

I’d expect the 3rd fight to be harder for Fury based I’m on that. But I’m not entirely sure what that plan can be?

If it was me I’d get Wilder to practice doulbing up on the 1-2. He throws almost exclusively single shots or the 1-2. He barely ever throws in more than 2 punch combos.

Get him to practice throwing sharp and straight. In clusters. Don’t look for the knock out but also don’t expect to go the distance (I know that sounds bit odd!). Fight at a high pace, throw way more than he normally does.

Weirdly, the best fight I can think of is the first Stiverne fight. He just clustered 1-2s and moved around. It was a good boxing performance. It probably won’t be enough to near Fury as he’s a box of tricks but it’s the only real realistic plan you can work with. He’s not gonna turn into Loma in 3-4 months.

 

[wesshaw1985]

 

[Dynamito]

Yep absolutely spot on. It is dull and it is boring, but essential.

His story goes to show just how impressive his power is. It basically allowed Him to enjoy a career that really needed to start a decade before it did.

Which is kind why they probably never went too far into the fundamentals of footwork? Guy was 20 when he started, right? I doubt he/they considered it practical to spend 3-5 years on his footwork? Plus it’s WAY easier to learn something physical when you’re 10, rather than when your 20 odd.

I don’t see how he dramatically improves? However, the right trainer can use the results of the 2nd fight to develop and prep a gameplan that plays to his limited strengths.

I’d expect the 3rd fight to be harder for Fury based I’m on that. But I’m not entirely sure what that plan can be?

If it was me I’d get Wilder to practice doulbing up on the 1-2. He throws almost exclusively single shots or the 1-2. He barely ever throws in more than 2 punch combos.

Get him to practice throwing sharp and straight. In clusters. Don’t look for the knock out but also don’t expect to go the distance (I know that sounds bit odd!). Fight at a high pace, throw way more than he normally does.

Weirdly, the best fight I can think of is the first Stiverne fight. He just clustered 1-2s and moved around. It was a good boxing performance. It probably won’t be enough to near Fury as he’s a box of tricks but it’s the only real realistic plan you can work with. He’s not gonna turn into Loma in 3-4 months.

Its not an impossible task for someone to master the basics like proper footwork if they take up the sport in their late teens. They may not have the fluidity of a Mayweather or a whitaker.

Many others have done it...what is harder is to make adjustments during the fight, to develop a proper ring IQ and generalship if you take up the sport later on. AJ for example has to be spoon-fed minute instructions during rounds.

Tim Witherspoon for one came from an American football background. Was about the same age as Wilder when he took up boxing and had only 6 amateur fights. In his 13th pro fight challenged Larry Holmes.

The difference is Witherspoon was coached by 2 legendary coaches the best of the best from Philadelphia Slim Jim Robinson and Willy Mouzon.

Wilder ended up at Jay Deas gym who himself did not actually come from a strong boxing background. Him and his brother are business people who decided to open up a gym.

The point I was trying to make is many novice fighters dont want to practice certain drills because they are repetitive and boring and dont understand the importance of them. A good coach sticks to his guns and forces a fighter to do them.

In Jay Deas case reading his interviews in the past he himself did not value the importance of proper footwork and balance. The logic he was applying was Roy Jones jnr did alot of things wrong and was unorthodox so Wilder doing things incorrectly was a positive.

In anycase as you have stated it is too late at 35 to learn what he should have learnt when he first entered the gym.

 

[Grant]

This rematch is pissing me off. I wish they'd go their separate ways and meet again if needs be. At the moment it's not needed and could potentially ruin Wilder.

 

[DB Cooper]

This rematch is pissing me off. I wish they'd go their separate ways and meet again if needs be. At the moment it's not needed and could potentially ruin Wilder.

If Fury wins III in similarly emphatic fashion to II Wilder's career will be in free fall and unless he is then able to earn a mandatory position I can't see him ever getting another title shot.

 

[ORG83]

Its not an impossible task for someone to master the basics like proper footwork if they take up the sport in their late teens. They may not have the fluidity of a Mayweather or a whitaker.

Many others have done it...what is harder is to make adjustments during the fight, to develop a proper ring IQ and generalship if you take up the sport later on. AJ for example has to be spoon-fed minute instructions during rounds.

Tim Witherspoon for one came from an American football background. Was about the same age as Wilder when he took up boxing and had only 6 amateur fights. In his 13th pro fight challenged Larry Holmes.

The difference is Witherspoon was coached by 2 legendary coaches the best of the best from Philadelphia Slim Jim Robinson and Willy Mouzon.

Wilder ended up at Jay Deas gym who himself did not actually come from a strong boxing background. Him and his brother are business people who decided to open up a gym.

The point I was trying to make is many novice fighters dont want to practice certain drills because they are repetitive and boring and dont understand the importance of them. A good coach sticks to his guns and forces a fighter to do them.

In Jay Deas case reading his interviews in the past he himself did not value the importance of proper footwork and balance. The logic he was applying was Roy Jones jnr did alot of things wrong and was unorthodox so Wilder doing things incorrectly was a positive.

In anycase as you have stated it is too late at 35 to learn what he should have learnt when he first entered the gym.

No it’s not impossible to learn something like footwork at 20, when you first start, but I can understand why it was never really developed with him.

Developing defence, learning to keep your shape is done through repetition yes, but it’s truly learnt from being the nail. I doubt Wilder has spend too much time being the nail, he’s holding 2 hammers, so the need to keep his shape and utilise good fundamental footwork has never been that great.

It’s not right, but I think most guys who took him on the pads would go “fuck me, we can do something with this!” and naturally wouldn’t focus on defensive footwork and keeping his shape. They’d do what his trainers have done, concentrate on getting his power into play.

 

[Ar558a]

If Fury wins III in similarly emphatic fashion to II Wilder's career will be in free fall and unless he is then able to earn a mandatory position I can't see him ever getting another title shot.

At 35, his career is over if he doesn't take it surely? Will the WBC guarantee him the mandatory position after Fury v AJ? That would kibosh Whyte? I would guess he would need to fight a top 10 guy to get the mandatory to give the WBC the excuse to strip it from Whyte, unless he fought Whyte but I can't see EH or Whyte agreeing without the title on the line.That means he probably has to fight Parker/Povetkin/Pulev/Hunter and win easily to get a mandatory for early 2021? All seems speculative to me. What is clear is his best shot is taking the rematch the $25m and hope he can adjust enough to land the big right, he will be a massive underdog but there seems little point even attempting to teach him to fight properly at his age, it'll never stick well enough to outdo Fury. I still believe his equilibrium got fucked in the third so maybe he can do any ortiz in III and get outboxed for 6,7,8 rounds and get one clean right. It's his only realistic shot.

 

[DB Cooper]

At 35, his career is over if he doesn't take it surely? Will the WBC guarantee him the mandatory position after Fury v AJ? That would kibosh Whyte? I would guess he would need to fight a top 10 guy to get the mandatory to give the WBC the excuse to strip it from Whyte, unless he fought Whyte but I can't see EH or Whyte agreeing without the title on the line.That means he probably has to fight Parker/Povetkin/Pulev/Hunter and win easily to get a mandatory for early 2021? All seems speculative to me. What is clear is his best shot is taking the rematch the $25m and hope he can adjust enough to land the big right, he will be a massive underdog but there seems little point even attempting to teach him to fight properly at his age, it'll never stick well enough to outdo Fury. I still believe his equilibrium got fucked in the third so maybe he can do any ortiz in III and get outboxed for 6,7,8 rounds and get one clean right. It's his only realistic shot.

Where did I say Wilder shouldn't take the fight?

 

[Dynamito]

No it’s not impossible to learn something like footwork at 20, when you first start, but I can understand why it was never really developed with him.

Developing defence, learning to keep your shape is done through repetition yes, but it’s truly learnt from being the nail. I doubt Wilder has spend too much time being the nail, he’s holding 2 hammers, so the need to keep his shape and utilise good fundamental footwork has never been that great.

It’s not right, but I think most guys who took him on the pads would go “fuck me, we can do something with this!” and naturally wouldn’t focus on defensive footwork and keeping his shape. They’d do what his trainers have done, concentrate on getting his power into play.

Well those type of coaches have no business being in a boxing gym. Even a purely attacking coach will teach correct footwork and balance, correct positioning, how to get into range, how to cut of the ring and create openings to attack an opponent, how to work in clinches etc.

Wilders footwork was neither good offensively or defensively just a midrange counterpuncher. Who would rush in and launch a clumsy windmill attack on occasion.

 

[Smooth]

If Fury wins III in similarly emphatic fashion to II Wilder's career will be in free fall and unless he is then able to earn a mandatory position I can't see him ever getting another title shot.

WBC would make Fury Franchise Champion and order Wilder vs annoying fat donkey cunt for the belt.

 

[Ar558a]

WBC would make Fury Franchise Champion and order Wilder vs annoying fat donkey cunt for the belt.

Yeh they'll do it just to piss EH off.

 

[Smooth]

Yeh they'll do it just to piss EH off.

As a fan I wouldn’t care, we would get two good fights.

 

[Grant]

WBC would make Fury Franchise Champion and order Wilder vs annoying fat donkey cunt for the belt.

Fuck knows how, but they should do it now. Let Fury fight Joshua.

Wilder vs Whyte for the 'WBC'. Winner can call themselves World Champ. That fight would sell, its excellent.

If Joshua needs to fight Pulev first, so be it. Fury can fight Schwartz again if he wants to stay active

 

[alternative hypothesis]

Yeh they'll do it just to piss EH off.

Where is the negative in this for Hearn?

It opens the door for AJ-Fury and Whyte still gets to challenge for the WBC title in February next year.

You are so glass half empty.

 

[Ar558a]

Where is the negative in this for Hearn?

It opens the door for AJ-Fury and Whyte still gets to challenge for the WBC title in February next year.

You are so glass half empty.

EH has stated him hates the Franchise Champion and if WBC make Fury/Wilder Franchise Champ after the third fight the Regular title becomes as valuable as Charr's WBA regular title. i.e Not worth the paper it's written on!

 

[alternative hypothesis]

EH has stated him hates the Franchise Champion and if WBC make Fury/Wilder Franchise Champ after the third fight the Regular title becomes as valuable as Charr's WBA regular title. i.e Not worth the paper it's written on!

You speak like someone who does not want to see AJ face Fury.