Up to 70 Chinese and Indian soldiers dead in border clashes.

May 25, 2013
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They'd jump on with the Indians against the Chinese I reckon. For all the issues they have India isn't putting Muslims into 're-education camps'.

But let's hope it doesn't come to that. Normally I'd say no way.....but China has been doing mad things lately.
I don't see it that way. India may not be putting Muslims in re-education camps but there's a long history of violence against Muslims in India. For example the 2002 Gujarat incident when Hindu extremists led to hundreds if not thousands of Muslims being killed depending on which estimate you take as accurate. Young Muslim girls were sexually assaulted, burned, raped and hacked to death. The ruling Indian government at the time did nothing to stop this or even condemn the action being taken and even condoned the rapes. Many believe this attack along with many others was a part of a state sponsored program to persecute the Muslim population.

That along with the history of conflict between India and Pakistan and China's aid to Pakistan in the form of building infrastructure and helping them develop nuclear weapons, I'd think Pakistan more likely siding with China. Not every country sees China like the west does as there isn't the history of conflict or political differences, it's easy to forget that as we tend to look at the world from only our own perspective.
 
Jul 29, 2012
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I don't see it that way. India may not be putting Muslims in re-education camps but there's a long history of violence against Muslims in India. For example the 2002 Gujarat incident when Hindu extremists led to hundreds if not thousands of Muslims being killed depending on which estimate you take as accurate. Young Muslim girls were sexually assaulted, burned, raped and hacked to death. The ruling Indian government at the time did nothing to stop this or even condemn the action being taken and even condoned the rapes. Many believe this attack along with many others was a part of a state sponsored program to persecute the Muslim population.

That along with the history of conflict between India and Pakistan and China's aid to Pakistan in the form of building infrastructure and helping them develop nuclear weapons, I'd think Pakistan more likely siding with China. Not every country sees China like the west does as there isn't the history of conflict or political differences, it's easy to forget that as we tend to look at the world from only our own perspective.
I agree. I see Pakistan siding with China on all of this.
 
Jul 25, 2012
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Licking their lips? More like shitting their pants.

Kashmir is a powder keg. All nuclear weapons states involved, except the Kashmiris, all of which I spoke to when I was there wanted independence.

China just want more and more of Ladakh. The Himalayas to them dont seem a natural border and they keep wanting to extend it. India has always kept that region heavily militarised and will be up for defending it. They are very insecure and protective of Kashmir.
There's never been a full-scale warfare between two nuclear powers.

In Kashmir there is regular trading of artillery between Pakistan and Indian across the border
In a bit of an escalation ,last year India conducted airstrikes on Pakistan militant camps in Pakistan Kashmir ,after 40 of its paramilitary soldiers in Kashmir were killed in a suicide bombing. One of India's Soviet era MIGs were shot down by the Pakistanis on their side and Indian pilot humiliatingly paraded on Pakistan television.


Going back a few decades,there were regular dogfights between the USSR and the United States during the Korean and Vietnam Wars.



The SIno-Soviet Border War of 1969 ,in a way a symbol of both the rift between the Chinese and Soviet leadership after Kruschev's policy of "de-Stalinization" and China's refusal to accept a junior position ,alongside the USSR, for the leadership of the Communist World , offers a curious parallel with the current incident.


12914


On 2 March 1969, a group of People's Liberation Army (PLA) troops ambushed Soviet border guards on Zhenbao(called Damansky Island by the Russians) Island.

According to the Chinese sources, the Soviets suffered 58 dead, including a senior colonel, and 94 wounded. The Chinese losses were reported as 29 dead.According to the Soviet/Russian sources, no fewer than 248 Chinese troops were killed on the island and on the frozen river, while 32 Soviet border guards were killed, 14 wounded.

To this day, each side blames the other for the start of the conflict. However, a scholarly consensus has emerged that the 1969 Sino-Soviet border crisis was a premeditated act of aggression orchestrated by the Chinese side......….Russian documents released since the glasnost era paint an unflattering picture of the Red Army command in the Far East with senior generals surprised by the outbreak of the fighting and of Red Army units haphazardly committed to action in a piecemeal style, but all of the documents speak of the Chinese as the aggressors. Even most Chinese historians now agree that on 2 March 1969, PLA forces planned and executed an ambush, which took the Soviets completely by surprise.
.........…….....
On 2 March 1969, Damansky (Zhenbao) Island was under Soviet control, regularly patrolled by Soviet border guards. Occasional incursions of Chinese peasants and fishermen were blocked and repelled without use of deadly force.

The Chinese attack on 2 March was led by 3 platoons of specially trained troops, supported by one artillery and two mortar units. It started unprovoked with the illegal crossing of the Sino-Soviet border by a group of 77 PLA soldiers, and took the Soviets by surprise. When a squad of seven men under the command of Sen Lt Ivan Strelnikov approached the Chinese with a verbal demand to leave the island, the Chinese troops opened fire, killing them all. This started a day of hostilities that saw a Chinese regular army detachment attacking two small groups of Soviet border guards comprising no more than 30 soldiers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_border_conflict



Then it seems Chinese were well prepared for the Soviet counter-attack ,quickly bringing up specialized infantry platoons ,with artillery support

We are seeing something similar in the current incident but this time the Chinese seem to have set up camp and brought in artillery ,before the initiation of violence.


Indians have been building up infrastructure on its side of the border,under Indian control, under PM Modi. and the Chinese seem to have taken this to have violated an unwritten rules on the border and a real effrontery and presumption on the of the Indians, given that they're not on the same level as the Chinese.

So ,if the usual unwritten rules of engagement on the border were no longer respected by the Indian side,the Chinese saw that they were longer bound to them , especially when it would be to their disadvantage.
 
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Jul 25, 2012
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This could set of a global recession.
I just checked on wiki.

Apparently, China is India's biggest trading partner. The trade (unsurprisingly) is overwhelmingly in China's favour . China, coupled with Hong Kong, annually has about $ 120 billion of total trade with India.

For comparison the annual trade between the US and China , coupled with Hong Kong, is around $ 680 billion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_India

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_the_United_States


If trade between China and India took a nosedive I see this potentially having a serious effect on India's economy, but I'm not sure there would be knock-on effects to the wider global economy (given that India is a rival to China in the region, the Chinese might even see this as not entirely undesirable outcome).

On the other hand, if China and the US went into a trade war ,Chinese manufacturers would be going under and you can definitely see demand for Western goods in China fall and global supply-chains being affected.
 
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Jack

P4P Star
Jul 29, 2012
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It won't be good if this is from China, it's becoming worrying at this point. Not to point the finger too early but given the hostility between China and Australia recently, they're the obvious first though. I just can't imagine any other country being so aggressive towards Australia but I'm hopeful it wasn't them because this is starting to feel like a powder keg.
 
May 25, 2013
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It won't be good if this is from China, it's becoming worrying at this point. Not to point the finger too early but given the hostility between China and Australia recently, they're the obvious first though. I just can't imagine any other country being so aggressive towards Australia but I'm hopeful it wasn't them because this is starting to feel like a powder keg.
I can't imagine it being anyone else unless the Aussie government has been talking smack about Putin and Russia, China seems to be very much the most likely culprit.
 

Broxi

Literal Communist
Jul 24, 2012
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I can't imagine it being anyone else unless the Aussie government has been talking smack about Putin and Russia, China seems to be very much the most likely culprit.
The US also got hit by a massive cyber attack last week I think it was.

I only know this because I saw it trending on Twitter.

The world is very unstable right now, we're getting very close to war and tbh, I'm not surprised.
 
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Jun 4, 2013
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I see China learnt nothing from history. Someone remind them about WW2 and fighting on two fronts.

At this rate they've only got to piss off Russia next .....
 
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kf3

Jul 17, 2012
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South London
I see China learnt nothing from history. Someone remind them about WW2 and fighting on two fronts.

At this rate they've only got to piss of Russia next .....
the relative weakness of the chinese military is one of th main resons i don't think we'll see a major war involving them any time soon.

they can get a lot of people in the army but it has not been a focus if investment for decades and is miles away from the abilities you would expect from a superpowers army.
 
Oct 22, 2012
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I don't see it that way. India may not be putting Muslims in re-education camps but there's a long history of violence against Muslims in India. For example, the 2002 Gujarat incident when Hindu extremists led to hundreds if not thousands of Muslims being killed depending on which estimate you take as accurate. Young Muslim girls were sexually assaulted, burned, raped and hacked to death. The ruling Indian government at the time did nothing to stop this or even condemn the action being taken and even condoned the rapes. Many believe this attack along with many others was a part of a state-sponsored program to persecute the Muslim population.

That along with the history of conflict between India and Pakistan and China's aid to Pakistan in the form of building infrastructure and helping them develop nuclear weapons, I'd think Pakistan more likely siding with China. Not every country sees China like the west does as there isn't the history of conflict or political differences, it's easy to forget that as we tend to look at the world from only our own perspective.
On the awful '02 Gujarat pogroms, if I remember right, the current PM Modi was a chief minister of that state of Gujarat during the violence? I need to reread the old sources, but maybe I'm being overactive, but as soon as he I heard he was elected, his close-ish associations with some of the perpetrators of the killings made me churn.

I don't know how much power or influence his previous post of 'Chief Minister' of Gujarat extended to be fair, but given it happened under his watch, along with his nationalistic flavour (more so Hindu nationalists.) Again isn't a good flag.

I'm a novice really on him, but after reading through some of the harrowing accounts of those pogroms in '02. I just can't feel right with him.
 
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kf3

Jul 17, 2012
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On the awful '02 Gujarat pogroms, if I remember right, the current PM Modi was a chief minister of that state of Gujarat during the violence? I need to reread the old sources, but maybe I'm being overactive, but as soon as he I heard he was elected, his close-ish associations with some of perpetrators of the killings made me churn.
yeah, his actions/comments led to a bunch of deaths there.

the number of hindu deaths is used to pretend it wasn't so bad, but how i understand it a good % of those were police killed by the hindu side.
 
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Oct 22, 2012
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yeah, his actions/dumb comments led to a bunch of deaths there.

the number of hindu deaths is used to pretend it wasn't so bad, but how i understand it a good % of those were police killed by the Hindu side.
There was some train that caught fire days before that was attributed to some Muslims or some crap like that. Many Hindus died in the fire, despite no clear evidence of the assailants or if they were Muslim, this was on one of the key sparks.

I think the clear distinction with many of the victims was that Muslim victims were largely victims of violence that had elements of being organized and coordinated by some local officials. I don't recall the Muslim attacks or later retaliations as matching what went on there during those days.

Awful.
 
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Oct 22, 2012
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I don't see it that way. India may not be putting Muslims in re-education camps but there's a long history of violence against Muslims in India. For example, the 2002 Gujarat incident when Hindu extremists led to hundreds if not thousands of Muslims being killed depending on which estimate you take as accurate. Young Muslim girls were sexually assaulted, burned, raped and hacked to death. The ruling Indian government at the time did nothing to stop this or even condemn the action being taken and even condoned the rapes. Many believe this attack along with many others was a part of a state-sponsored program to persecute the Muslim population.

That along with the history of conflict between India and Pakistan and China's aid to Pakistan in the form of building infrastructure and helping them develop nuclear weapons, I'd think Pakistan more likely siding with China. Not every country sees China like the west does as there isn't the history of conflict or political differences, it's easy to forget that as we tend to look at the world from only our own perspective.

Good post. Pakistan, in a geopolitical sense and its dodgy history of playing both sides of the fence, doesn't really have a lot of good prospects for future allies as they successively and foolishly continued to be caught on, often disastrously really. Balochistan, a problem province with a history of insurgency in Pakistan. Due to the weak gov presence and conflict, they've leased a key port to the Chinese. If any further strife pops up by Balochi insurgents. Could China use an excuse to move what forces it can, to the Balochi port given 'their interests ' are being threatened? Thank God their navy isn't up to the level as it's main competitors... Yet.

But on Pakistan, it's reputation is bad with not just it's neighbours, but take a bloc like East-Asia. Remember when it was found out the Stanis had helped both North Korea and Libya with access to WMD material? This was already at least 2 decades ago. Ever since, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, aren't really interested in much of any meaningful trade that would help Pakistan. Plus its political instability is another headache when dealing with them, another unreliable trait. And most importantly, aiding the NKs missile program which is a big issue for those countries especially.
 
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Oct 22, 2012
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India has many folks eager to trade (Central Asian Repubs) with them in comparison. They would have already but it's not as easy when Pakistan still sirs between them (when it comes to the trade of natural gas lines). Pakistan's reliable person still has remained the Saudis I think. Given they have in the past received crucial loans from KSA.
 
Oct 22, 2012
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I see China learnt nothing from history. Someone remind them about WW2 and fighting on two fronts.

At this rate they've only got to piss of Russia next .....
I'm not sure what your reference is to China fighting on two fronts, but it's fair to say it's Geographic location and boundaries aren't really comparable to those Germans.?


The region where these clashes occurred are quite remote areas for both states if I remember correctly? If so, I don't think either will be thrilled with the nightmare of what an logistics operation it would take, to deploy in these remote zones.
 

kf3

Jul 17, 2012
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South London
I'm not sure what your reference is to China fighting on two fronts, but it's fair to say it's Geographic location and boundaries aren't really comparable to those Germans.?


The region where these clashes occurred are quite remote areas for both states if I remember correctly? If so, I don't think either will be thrilled with the nightmare of what an logistics operation it would take, to deploy in these remote zones.
is a lot more remote for china than india, this is the other side of the hymalayas for them, plus india has put a lot of focus in the kashmir region so has some of its best forces to hand there.
 
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Jun 4, 2013
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I'm not sure what your reference is to China fighting on two fronts, but it's fair to say it's Geographic location and boundaries aren't really comparable to those Germans.?


The region where these clashes occurred are quite remote areas for both states if I remember correctly? If so, I don't think either will be thrilled with the nightmare of what an logistics operation it would take, to deploy in these remote zones.
LOL! You know I didn't mean literally but metaphorically right?

Of China are never going to embark on a military war with India! I was alluding to politically alienating themselves on multiple sides.
 
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