we've got a trans gender at work

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Juiceboxbiotch

Prove It.
May 16, 2013
5,482
1,782
Las Vegas, NV
www.facebook.com
@Haggis @Strike
There are MANY cases of physical hermaphroditism (more current term: Intersex) in humans... proving that gender isn't strictly binary (Man/Woman), but rather fluid (there is more of a gender range). Some of this fluidity is psychological as well as/in stead of physical. For you to say "He was born a man, I'll always consider him a man" is for you to ignore certain biological realities that ..uhemmm.. prove otherwise.
I'm not talking about losing your job for saying the wrong thing or whatever... those are different arguments. What I'm saying is ya'll need to get more informed. You are thinking your hard line is based in some kind of science but it isn't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
 
Reactions: BobDigi5060
Jun 7, 2013
4,750
1,308
I'd seriously start looking for a new job. it's like that lady that gets away with being bitchy all the time at work, but you'll get written up for saying anything back X100
 
Reactions: hazza
May 25, 2013
14,479
9,562
@Haggis @Strike
There are MANY cases of physical hermaphroditism (more current term: Intersex) in humans... proving that gender isn't strictly binary (Man/Woman), but rather fluid (there is more of a gender range). Some of this fluidity is psychological as well as/in stead of physical. For you to say "He was born a man, I'll always consider him a man" is for you to ignore certain biological realities that ..uhemmm.. prove otherwise.
I'm not talking about losing your job for saying the wrong thing or whatever... those are different arguments. What I'm saying is ya'll need to get more informed. You are thinking your hard line is based in some kind of science but it isn't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
Ignoring the fact that you're conflating the terms sex and gender, to think of sex in terms of a range, a spectrum or to describe it as fluid is extremely misleading. The vast, vast majority of the population is either male or female. Something like 99.95% of the population or more are strictly female or strictly male. It's not a spectrum or a range, there are statistical outliers in the absolute extreme that are exceptions from the binary that applies to the rest of the population. Gender is arguable only insofar as the term has been so drastically redefined in recent years. Still, to say that it's not a binary term is disingenuous, as again the enormous majority identify as either male or female, and there is an infinitesimal percentage that identify as some kind of "other"
 
Nov 14, 2015
9,608
9,775
Or maybe there are things that happen in other people's heads that you will never relate to or understand. Have you considered that possibility? Or does it not matter to you that every other person on Earth doesn't have the same exact disposition as you do? Maybe this dude really does feel like a woman trapped in a man's body? This is a documented thing that really does happen... all over the world. I personally don't understand or relate to it myself, but I can wrap my head around the possibility that they aren't lying about how they feel and I can respectfully adjust my pronouns without having my whole work life upended. Why do you have so much trouble with it? And why have you repeatedly mentioned the person's genitals as if you've seen them or as if you really know whats going on in their pants/skirt?
@Haggis @Strike
There are MANY cases of physical hermaphroditism (more current term: Intersex) in humans... proving that gender isn't strictly binary (Man/Woman), but rather fluid (there is more of a gender range). Some of this fluidity is psychological as well as/in stead of physical. For you to say "He was born a man, I'll always consider him a man" is for you to ignore certain biological realities that ..uhemmm.. prove otherwise.
I'm not talking about losing your job for saying the wrong thing or whatever... those are different arguments. What I'm saying is ya'll need to get more informed. You are thinking your hard line is based in some kind of science but it isn't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
You seem a bit touchy about the subject.

Is there anything you wanna tell us?
 
May 16, 2013
7,873
6,186
There should be 4 options on any form.

  • Man/Male
  • Woman/Female
  • Intersex - born with both male and female reproductive organs (ie Caster Semenya)
  • Mentally ill and have a delusion that you are something other than what you were born as.
 
Jun 4, 2012
27,845
18,388
@Haggis @Strike
There are MANY cases of physical hermaphroditism (more current term: Intersex) in humans... proving that gender isn't strictly binary (Man/Woman), but rather fluid (there is more of a gender range). Some of this fluidity is psychological as well as/in stead of physical. For you to say "He was born a man, I'll always consider him a man" is for you to ignore certain biological realities that ..uhemmm.. prove otherwise.
I'm not talking about losing your job for saying the wrong thing or whatever... those are different arguments. What I'm saying is ya'll need to get more informed. You are thinking your hard line is based in some kind of science but it isn't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
This is a different issue altogether. I am well aware of intersex conditions, these are rare and they are extremely unfortunate, but they are not what makes people transgender. The entire issue around transgenderism is that it is not someone who is intersex or having a rare chromosomal disorder, such as XXY, it is someone born XX or XY with normal sexual development who "feels" like they are the opposite sex.

In the case of "non binary" or "gender fluid" people this is again people saying they don't identify as either sex, or (even more ludicrously) that they identify as male on some days and female on others. Miley Cyrus identifies as "non binary", she is not intersex. She does not have a sexual development disorder such as a 46 XY disorder like Caster Semenya. Cyrus is XY, with a uterus, breasts that can lactate, a vagina, ovaries...she is a woman. She is also an attention seeking, SJW type and so abracadabra, she's "non binary".

My science on this is well informed, well researched and none of my views are coming from a place of ignorance. I refer to Semenya as "she" because that is how she has always seen herself, and because she is intersex, but appeared female at birth and has thus always thought of herself as female. The reality is that she has XY chromosomes, almost certainly internal testes, with no uterus, ovaries or any other internal female reproductive organs. She is actually more male than female, but she has no male exterior sexual organs and instead has female ones, due to the rare 46 XY disorder that she has.

Again, this is nothing to do with transgenderism. Any time this discussion comes up, you will have transgender activists immediately start throwing around XXY, XXX and other rare disorders as some sort of trump card, and yet these disorders are mutually exclusive from people who are transgender. There MIGHT be some crossover at some point on a venn diagram...sure there might be someone who is XXY and who also identifies as female, but that would be coincidence as opposed to causal.

Transgender women are XY men who think they are women trapped in male forms. They are not, by and large, intersex like Semenya, they are not one of the small number of people with something like XXY. In fact, those people realise something is wrong at puberty, as they tend not to develop as normal, and then seek hormonal treatment to develop as a regular male. An XXX woman is unlikely to ever know she is XXX, as most cases don't even have any observable differences.

Someone with something as rare as XXYY, will have learning difficulties, speech problems and need regular medical treatment. It's frankly insulting to people that these conditions are thrown in with transgenderism as a way of point scoring, and it's a sign of just how happy to be disingenuous many of the activists in this movement are.
 
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Juiceboxbiotch

Prove It.
May 16, 2013
5,482
1,782
Las Vegas, NV
www.facebook.com
This is a different issue altogether. I am well aware of intersex conditions, these are rare and they are extremely unfortunate, but they are not what makes people transgender. The entire issue around transgenderism is that it is not someone who is intersex or having a rare chromosomal disorder, such as XXY, it is someone born XX or XY with normal sexual development who "feels" like they are the opposite sex.

In the case of "non binary" or "gender fluid" people this is again people saying they don't identify as either sex, or (even more ludicrously) that they identify as male on some days and female on others. Miley Cyrus identifies as "non binary", she is not intersex. She does not have a sexual development disorder such as a 46 XY disorder like Caster Semenya. Cyrus is XY, with a uterus, breasts that can lactate, a vagina, ovaries...she is a woman. She is also an attention seeking, SJW type and so abracadabra, she's "non binary".

My science on this is well informed, well researched and none of my views are coming from a place of ignorance. I refer to Semenya as "she" because that is how she has always seen herself, and because she is intersex, but appeared female at birth and has thus always thought of herself as female. The reality is that she has XY chromosomes, almost certainly internal testes, with no uterus, ovaries or any other internal female reproductive organs. She is actually more male than female, but she has no male exterior sexual organs and instead has female ones, due to the rare 46 XY disorder that she has.

Again, this is nothing to do with transgenderism. Any time this discussion comes up, you will have transgender activists immediately start throwing around XXY, XXX and other rare disorders as some sort of trump card, and yet these disorders are mutually exclusive from people who are transgender. There MIGHT be some crossover at some point on a venn diagram...sure there might be someone who is XXY and who also identifies as female, but that would be coincidence as opposed to causal.

Transgender women are XY men who think they are women trapped in male forms. They are not, by and large, intersex like Semenya, they are not one of the small number of people with something like XXY. In fact, those people realise something is wrong at puberty, as they tend not to develop as normal, and then seek hormonal treatment to develop as a regular male. An XXX woman is unlikely to ever know she is XXX, as most cases don't even have any observable differences.

Someone with something as rare as XXYY, will have learning difficulties, speech problems and need regular medical treatment. It's frankly insulting to people that these conditions are thrown in with transgenderism as a way of point scoring, and it's a sign of just how happy to be disingenuous many of the activists in this movement are.
 
Jun 4, 2012
27,845
18,388
When you say they are delusional, you are not dealing in statistically observable facts. You have no idea whats really going on in these peoples' heads. That's an opinion. ¯\(ツ)
No it's not. If you a man, and you believe you are a woman, that is delusional. It might be a delusion caused by a hormonal issue in development, we don't know yet, but it is a belief in something that is objectively not true. Delusion is defined as "a belief maintained despite being contradicted by reality". What would you call an XY person with a penis, testicles, who believes that he is a XX woman "trapped" inside a male body? Is that a reality? Are there male and female souls that are trapped in the wrong bodies? No.

As I also said, I would use their preferred pronouns, as it doesn't harm me to do so, but by definition it is a delusion. It might not be a mental illness, but rather a misfiring in the brain, but whatever the actual cause, the outcome is a belief that is intrinsically and demonstrably false.
 
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Juiceboxbiotch

Prove It.
May 16, 2013
5,482
1,782
Las Vegas, NV
www.facebook.com
No it's not. If you a man, and you believe you are a woman, that is delusional. It might be a delusion caused by a hormonal issue in development, we don't know yet, but it is a belief in something that is objectively not true. Delusion is defined as "a belief maintained despite being contradicted by reality". What would you call an XY person with a penis, testicles, who believes that he is a XX woman "trapped" inside a male body? Is that a reality? Are there male and female souls that are trapped in the wrong bodies? No.

As I also said, I would use their preferred pronouns, as it doesn't harm me to do so, but by definition it is a delusion. It might not be a mental illness, but rather a misfiring in the brain, but whatever the actual cause, the outcome is a belief that is intrinsically and demonstrably false.
Well it's my opinion that we should have and show respect to people who have any kind of gender related disorder, whether it be physically or mentally. For some of these people, to demonstrate that they are having delusions requires a direct infringement on their right to their own privacy. And its just not worth it to go down that road. Let them be, or claim to be, or strive to be, or aspire to be whatever gender they want. It does not affect you until you let it. And to claim you know what is really happening in anyone's head is demonstrably false.
 
Jun 4, 2012
27,845
18,388
Well it's my opinion that we should have and show respect to people who have any kind of gender related disorder, whether it be physically or mentally.
I agree, and I have made it quite clear from my first post that this is my approach.

And to claim you know what is really happening in anyone's head is demonstrably false.
I haven't made that claim, I have simply said that whatever is going on in their head is not reflected by reality. I don't need to know why Rachel Dolezal believes she is black, to know that she isn't and that her belief is delusional.

But, as I've said, I don't feel the need to tell people they're delusional, and I would call a transgender person by the name and pronouns they prefer. But if you ask me for my honest view, on whether that really is a woman or man...then no it's not.
 
Reactions: DBerry

Juiceboxbiotch

Prove It.
May 16, 2013
5,482
1,782
Las Vegas, NV
www.facebook.com
I agree, and I have made it quite clear from my first post that this is my approach.


I haven't made that claim, I have simply said that whatever is going on in their head is not reflected by reality. I don't need to know why Rachel Dolezal believes she is black, to know that she isn't and that her belief is delusional.

But, as I've said, I don't feel the need to tell people they're delusional, and I would call a transgender person by the name and pronouns they prefer. But if you ask me for my honest view, on whether that really is a woman or man...then no it's not.
K :thumbsup
 

WaltzingMatilda

racist on the way to being banned
Nov 29, 2015
1,406
475
Sydney “Orstralia”
No it's not. If you a man, and you believe you are a woman, that is delusional. It might be a delusion caused by a hormonal issue in development, we don't know yet, but it is a belief in something that is objectively not true. Delusion is defined as "a belief maintained despite being contradicted by reality". What would you call an XY person with a penis, testicles, who believes that he is a XX woman "trapped" inside a male body? Is that a reality? Are there male and female souls that are trapped in the wrong bodies? No.

As I also said, I would use their preferred pronouns, as it doesn't harm me to do so, but by definition it is a delusion. It might not be a mental illness, but rather a misfiring in the brain, but whatever the actual cause, the outcome is a belief that is intrinsically and demonstrably false.


Who gives a fuck, there seems to be a substantial amount of people who swear blind that they have always felt like they should be the opposite sex, & if gender reassignment or whatever stops them from killing themselves & makes them happy, it’s just a big fat case of good for them & nobody else should give a fuck, everyone just needs to mind their own business & show some tolerance, too many fucking busybodies these days
 
Reactions: Juiceboxbiotch
Jun 4, 2012
27,845
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Who gives a fuck, there seems to be a substantial amount of people who swear blind that they have always felt like they should be the opposite sex, & if gender reassignment or whatever stops them from killing themselves & makes them happy, it’s just a big fat case of good for them & nobody else should give a fuck, everyone just needs to mind their own business & show some tolerance, too many fucking busybodies these days
Again, you're reading into my post something that was never said. I've said (maybe 4 times now on this thread) that transgender people deserve protection by the law, that I would use their preferred pronouns, that it's harming nobody etc etc. The post you've quoted was a specific reply to someone claiming the issue was related to intersex conditions, which it isn't.

I agree that if it makes them happy and sorts their lives out to have the change then that's good. The evidence on whether this is the case, is at best tenuous, suicide rates remain hugely elevated within that community, however this is a real chicken and egg scenario, as perhaps the suicide rates are down to the abuse, alienation etc that transgender people suffer, as opposed to it being a byproduct of being transgender.

Regardless, in an ideal world nobody would be born feeling they were in the wrong body, and IF a clear causal factor was discovered and could therefore be stopped from ever happening again, that would be the best possible thing to happen, and yet saying that will have you labelled as transphobic and hateful. So the attitude is that it's not better to have the person born and be happy in their body, that's hateful, it would be better for them to be born, grow up feeling unhappy and trapped and then undergo surgery while continually taking medication to try and make their body one that feels in synch with their mind.
 
Reactions: DBerry

Dazl1212

Ripley, strong independent woman who don't no man
May 16, 2013
19,524
5,931
UK
Not to speak for @hazza, buuuuuuuut........

Because he's not a woman. Simple as that. He can pretend all he wants, he can "feel like" a woman all his life, but every single cell in his body is genetically permanently hardcoded as male. Using the law to force others to deny objective biological reality and to instead embrace delusional fantasy, is fucking ridiculous. This guy can pretend all he wants and if he's not hurting anyone else then he should be free to do that. But he should not be free to force everyone else - on pain of losing their jobs - to deny objective reality because his feels. :bart

:hat
I think they are mentally ill and I say that as someone who has and still has some mental health issues, and I dont want people to indulge me in any delusions I have...
 
May 25, 2013
14,479
9,562
I think they are mentally ill and I say that as someone who has and still has some mental health issues, and I dont want people to indulge me in any delusions I have...
So you're saying.... there's not actually a transgender at your work....?

Edit.
Nevermind, thought hazza had posted that.
 
Reactions: Dazl1212

WaltzingMatilda

racist on the way to being banned
Nov 29, 2015
1,406
475
Sydney “Orstralia”
be
Again, you're reading into my post something that was never said. I've said (maybe 4 times now on this thread) that transgender people deserve protection by the law, that I would use their preferred pronouns, that it's harming nobody etc etc. The post you've quoted was a specific reply to someone claiming the issue was related to intersex conditions, which it isn't.

I agree that if it makes them happy and sorts their lives out to have the change then that's good. The evidence on whether this is the case, is at best tenuous, suicide rates remain hugely elevated within that community, however this is a real chicken and egg scenario, as perhaps the suicide rates are down to the abuse, alienation etc that transgender people suffer, as opposed to it being a byproduct of being transgender.

Regardless, in an ideal world nobody would be born feeling they were in the wrong body, and IF a clear causal factor was discovered and could therefore be stopped from ever happening again, that would be the best possible thing to happen, and yet saying that will have you labelled as transphobic and hateful. So the attitude is that it's not better to have the person born and be happy in their body, that's hateful, it would be better for them to be born, grow up feeling unhappy and trapped and then undergo surgery while continually taking medication to try and make their body one that feels in synch with their mind.


I actually wasn’t focusing on your post so much, it was just that I chose it to get my general thoughts across, I wasn’t specifically having a go at you
 
Reactions: Strike