What does Lomachenko need to do to be considered an all-time great?

Aug 13, 2017
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You either have 40 wins against ring top 10 ranked fighters, or your simply not an ATG.
No inbetweens.
Muhammad who?

Here's my list of ATGs:
1)Archie Moore
2)Robinson
Shit list, SRR has 19 losses. Put Wilder in as he's knocked out everybody he's ever fought.
 

thegee

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@dyna , a man after my own heart, TWO REAL ATG"S. you are areal boxing fan. REgards Mervyn THe Gee
 

thegee

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@Kezza, 19 losses in 200 fights? most of the defeats were when he was over 40 yrs old . Regards Mervyn The Gee
 
Aug 13, 2017
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@One to watch, Robinson, why do I keep mentioning him? Well when I see who is being compared to the likes , instance aspreviously mentioned, NINETY wins without defeat. Give it a rest , , it as to be a draw, look for someone else to annoy. Regards Mervyn The Gee
Come on mate, you can be in the ATG discussion and still not be in Robinson's league as that man was godly. This is a debate about what has Loma got to do to become an ATG.
 
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@Kezza, 19 losses in 200 fights? most of the defeats were when he was over 40 yrs old . Regards Mervyn The Gee
Sorry Mr Gee but I was being facetious. Robinson was the greatest of them all and there's nothing Loma can do to surpass him. I do think he can carve out an ATG career for himself though over the next 5 years.
 
Jun 3, 2013
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@Smudger, come back down to earth, you really are getting carried away . I don"t have to make excuses to defend Robinson, by every measure he was/is an ATG. In Lomo"s case he as a long way to go before being considered as an ATG. Regards Mervyn The Gee
You are certainly getting overly defensive at the thought of Loma ever being considered alongside fighters from yesteryear - Robinson for example.

Let's be real, modern fights will never get hundreds of wins, it's just not realistic. Trying to compare records is unfair tbh.

I'm not sure he will be an ATG to be honest. I saw deficiencies on Saturday night and against a fighter not many rated that highly prior to the fight being announced. He's already 30 years old too so I'm not sure how long it will be till he starts to fade. He ought to fight Mikey as soon as possible and at 135lbs. If he wins that, I think we can realistically start saying with confidence that he'll finish up a modern great. If he loses it, I was right to be measured all along.
No one rated Linares?

I think we can realistically start saying he'll finish as a modern great. He's already favourite over Garcia and has standout wins against Linares (top boy at lightweight) and Rigo (P4P star, yeah inb4 he was too small/wasn't really that good anyway blah blah) alongside very good wins against Walters and Russell Jr (in his 3rd fight, mind you). He's smashing records and taking names. Hindsight may turn out to be a wonderful thing, but right now he's easily on his way to being a modern great.
 
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I wanna add it isn't a hypebole either, or whatever it's being called. He's doing things others took years to achieve in 12 fights and doing so in spectacular fashion.

I hate the saying, but 'it is what it is'. He's a fantastic fighter, clearly the most skilled active boxer today, he's setting records and beating world class fighters in style and he's going to try to do a lot more. Stop trying to be cool by acting like you're not impressed and you have superior knowledge because you once watched Harry Greb's boxrec and it says he defeated 5 million world champions. What Loma doing is impressive and how he's doing it is exceptional.

It's not about getting caught up in the hype, it's appreciating what we have in front of us and Loma has been extraordinary so far.
 

thegee

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@Smudger, no I am not being over defensive. I appreciate that the modern fighter will never fight 10-12 fights in a year like Moore, but You and I have an opinion, it just so happens that mine is different to yours , but that does not make me right. It"s just that when I watch the likes of Moore , Robinson , LaMotta, and Basilio, I find it hard to even think of our present crop in the same breath. Regards Mervyn The Gee
 

Pedderrs

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No one rated Linares?
I say he wasn't rated that highly, not that he wasn't rated. Certainly not of Mikey's calibre.

I think we can realistically start saying he'll finish as a modern great. He's already favourite over Garcia and has standout wins against Linares (top boy at lightweight) and Rigo (P4P star, yeah inb4 he was too small/wasn't really that good anyway blah blah) alongside very good wins against Walters and Russell Jr (in his 3rd fight, mind you). He's smashing records and taking names. Hindsight may turn out to be a wonderful thing, but right now he's easily on his way to being a modern great.
Being favourite or the underdog doesn't add weight to a fighter's standing or legacy unfortunately. History tells us that it means very little indeed. Besides, Garcia won more votes in the poll in the general when asked who would win in a potential fight between the two. There's also pertinent details to consider when discussing the victories over Rigo and Walters. Naturally you can either downplay or overplay the details depending on your particular agenda, but if you're like me and perfectly neutral in this debate, then you can confirm without bias that Rigo was inactive and massively undersized. Walters also hadn't fought a year and was coming off a rather underwhelming performance in his previous outing before that. Good, respectable victories, but nothing on the level of Srisaket's victories over Gonzalez or Estrada for example.

I say we wait until he fights a truly great fighter who isn't massively undersized or inactive, and then we can realistically assess where Lomachenko is in a historical context.
 

Pedderrs

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I wanna add it isn't a hypebole either, or whatever it's being called. He's doing things others took years to achieve in 12 fights and doing so in spectacular fashion.
It depends what you're referring to. The suggestion that he might already be an ATG is absolutely hyperbole when compared to his resume and achievements. He has achieved an awful lot very quickly, this is true, but boxing has been around a long time, and Linares isn't a world beater.

I hate the saying, but 'it is what it is'. He's a fantastic fighter, clearly the most skilled active boxer today, he's setting records and beating world class fighters in style and he's going to try to do a lot more. Stop trying to be cool by acting like you're not impressed and you have superior knowledge because you once watched Harry Greb's boxrec and it says he defeated 5 million world champions. What Loma doing is impressive and how he's doing it is exceptional.
I mean, this is a strawman I guess. Because nobody here has said they are unimpressed with him, only that they would rather wait until he beats a killer before speculating on his ATG potential. To me it seems like the reasonable position. I personally wouldn't also be so quick to say he is 'clearly the most skilled active boxer today' when he's had so much difficulty with Salido and now Linares.

It's not about getting caught up in the hype, it's appreciating what we have in front of us and Loma has been extraordinary so far.
You can appreciate the man without divulging into suggesting he's an ATG. That's what some of us prefer to do.
 
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Jun 6, 2012
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@One to watch, Robinson, why do I keep mentioning him? Well when I see who is being compared to the likes , instance aspreviously mentioned, NINETY wins without defeat. Give it a rest , , it as to be a draw, look for someone else to annoy. Regards Mervyn The Gee
Merv, with huge respect, you've done this a few times now. (Comparing Fury-Sexton to the best British Title fights you've ever seen, most recently, as a way of saying it was sub-standard and unwatchable.)

You haven't got to be better that Ray Robinson to be considered an ATG. Otherwise we'd have a very short list, indeed! It's a strawman.

I'm not saying Loma is or isn't, but at least compare him to his contemporaries, who have earnt that status, not consensus No1, otherwise there would only ever be one!
 

Pedderrs

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Merv, with huge respect, you've done this a few times now. (Comparing Fury-Sexton to the best British Title fights you've ever seen, most recently, as a way of saying it was sub-standard and unwatchable.)

You haven't got to be better that Ray Robinson to be considered an ATG. Otherwise we'd have a very short list, indeed! It's a strawman.

I'm not saying Loma is or isn't, but at least compare him to his contemporaries, who have earnt that status, not consensus No1, otherwise there would only ever be one!

Perhaps this is what annoyed @thegee

We have boxing journalists suggesting it's a legitimate debate.
 
Jun 3, 2013
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I say he wasn't rated that highly, not that he wasn't rated. Certainly not of Mikey's calibre.



Being favourite or the underdog doesn't add weight to a fighter's standing or legacy unfortunately. History tells us that it means very little indeed. Besides, Garcia won more votes in the poll in the general when asked who would win in a potential fight between the two. There's also pertinent details to consider when discussing the victories over Rigo and Walters. Naturally you can either downplay or overplay the details depending on your particular agenda, but if you're like me and perfectly neutral in this debate, then you can confirm without bias that Rigo was inactive and massively undersized. Walters also hadn't fought a year and was coming off a rather underwhelming performance in his previous outing before that. Good, respectable victories, but nothing on the level of Srisaket's victories over Gonzalez or Estrada for example.

I say we wait until he fights a truly great fighter who isn't massively undersized or inactive, and then we can realistically assess where Lomachenko is in a historical context.
I agree.

It depends what you're referring to. The suggestion that he might already be an ATG is absolutely hyperbole when compared to his resume and achievements. He has achieved an awful lot very quickly, this is true, but boxing has been around a long time, and Linares isn't a world beater.
I agree.

Pedderrs said:
You can appreciate the man without divulging into suggesting he's an ATG. That's what some of us prefer to do.
I guess this is a strawman too. Is anyone actually even saying he's an ATG in here?
 

Pedderrs

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I guess this is a strawman too. Is anyone actually even saying he's an ATG in here?
This thread has been pretty fair. That hasn't always been the case when the topic of Lomachenko crops up on this forum though.

But fair point all the same. I'm just a competitive individual and wanted to outdo your strawman, mate.

 
Jun 3, 2013
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This thread has been pretty fair. That hasn't always been the case when the topic of Lomachenko crops up on this forum though.

But fair point all the same. I'm just a competitive individual and wanted to outdo your strawman, mate.

I do believe I still have control over your avatar for another 8 months, kidda.

You want a Lomachenko "TBE" one made up?
 
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Pedderrs

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I'll need to give the article a read before commenting - horrific headline though.
No wonder promoter Bob Arum, a veteran of 52 years making fighting dreams happen, is struggling to place his latest boxer. “How can you compare him with (Muhammad) Ali or (Sugar Ray) Leonard? He’s unique, I can’t compare him,” Arum said.

There is never, and I doubt there will ever be, a question asked about Lomachenko’s stamina and heart and that is because the very best never have to answer the basic questions. It’s an insult to ask about Ali’s heart and Lomachenko is now in that company of idols.