Who is history's all-time greatest military leader?

May 23, 2013
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tahiti
It wasn't simply a matter of being "more professional," it was the fact that Alexander maneuvered his troops to get the style matchups that he wanted. Persian chariots were still very effective against cavalry, but Alexander maneuvered his infantry and javelin throwers opposite the chariots, as they were better suited to withstand their charge.




Darius fled because Alexander's maneuvers succeeded in opening up a gap in the Persian center, and Darius himself was on the verge of being killed or captured both times, which would've led to the same outcome.
no mate I believe not.
Chariots on the battlefield where outdated by then.
 

rjjfan

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In genghis his case I am not convinced. His generals where the military commanders...he himself far less.
In the beginning ofcourse he himself and he te organized their army but I give more credit to subotai then to genghis
I suppose its like when Alexander inherited his army which was a polished tool and well able to carry out his stratagems.
 

SwollenGoat

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BTW

Ludendorff deserves some mention.....................he was responsible for some massive victories,in greater or lesser degree,from early western front personal ground level stuff to russian front victories to damn near winning the war through western front defense and,later,the massive 1918 offensives that finally restored mobile war..............

he lost,but he was almost always at a disadvantage strategically,in men and material..............
 

Duo

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If we extend this to admirals, Yi Sun-sin fought 23 battles defending Korea against Japanese invaders without losing a single ship from 1592-1598. In 14 of those battles, no Japanese ships survived.

Heihachiro Togo (1848-1934) said after western journalists called him 'The Nelson of the East' that, "It may be proper to compare me to Nelson, but not to Yi Sun-sin. He is too great to be compared to anyone." (Togo wrote in English in one of his journals that he was convinced he was the reincarnation of Nelson.)
 

Haggis

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Can we come up with 3 names that we all generally, more or less, agree should be somewhere in the top 5?

Alexander seems a dead cert
Napoleon is not far behind
Who else? Anyone else?

:hat
 
May 23, 2013
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Can we come up with 3 names that we all generally, more or less, agree should be somewhere in the top 5?

Alexander seems a dead cert
Napoleon is not far behind
Who else? Anyone else?

:hat
Hannibal barca for his total career..

regurarly beating much larger and more progressional armies then his own..

that alone already makes him great but what makes him atg is he regularly in battles saw how and when to change/react
Furthermore he used the surroundings and nature and enviroment to its fullest use.
 
May 23, 2013
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tahiti
If we extend this to admirals, Yi Sun-sin fought 23 battles defending Korea against Japanese invaders without losing a single ship from 1592-1598. In 14 of those battles, no Japanese ships survived.

Heihachiro Togo (1848-1934) said after western journalists called him 'The Nelson of the East' that, "It may be proper to compare me to Nelson, but not to Yi Sun-sin. He is too great to be compared to anyone." (Togo wrote in English in one of his journals that he was convinced he was the reincarnation of Nelson.)
mate if admirals come into play their can be only one choice..

michiel de ruyter
 

Haggis

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Hannibal barca for his total career..

regurarly beating much larger and more progressional armies then his own..
Yeah Alexander, Napoleon and Hannibal definitely seem to be in contention for most people's top 5. Three Europeans though, chosen by a bunch of Euros..... :think1

:hat
 

SwollenGoat

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Where does Rommel and Guderian rank among the greats?
IMHO Rommel is over-rated...........a brilliant battlefield commander but in over his head with the more complex parts of 'generaling'

Guderian was far better and understood the more technical parts of the job.............Achtung Panzer is pretty much required reading on the subject and his battlefield performance was good.........he got pulled to staff level stuff too soon and was ignored too much as he tried to fix the problems with german armor and armored strategy

Manstein is,probably,the best of the NAZI lot,in whole.................but they ha a ton of guys that would have shined brilliantly in any other army..........like Hoth or Hoepner or Kesselring or Model...................too many to list really............
 

Duo

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mate if admirals come into play their can be only one choice..

michiel de ruyter
Hmm...do I detect some jingoism there? Certainly a fine admiral, but he lost the Two Days' Battle, while Stromboli and Augusta were indecisive. His death didn't occur during the sort of momentous triumph Nelson had at Trafalgar.

Some Dutch contrarians might even contradict your citation of de Ruyter with Hein (who I regard as a privateer rather than an admiral).
 

SwollenGoat

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Hmm...do I detect some jingoism there? Certainly a fine admiral, but he lost the Two Days' Battle, while Stromboli and Augusta were indecisive. His death didn't occur during the sort of momentous triumph Nelson had at Trafalgar.

Some Dutch contrarians might even contradict your citation of de Ruyter with Hein (who I regard as a privateer rather than an admiral).
you never cease to amaze me :cheers

eclectic knowledge is the best knowledge :lol::good
 

Bachafach^^^

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If we extend this to admirals, Yi Sun-sin fought 23 battles defending Korea against Japanese invaders without losing a single ship from 1592-1598. In 14 of those battles, no Japanese ships survived.

Heihachiro Togo (1848-1934) said after western journalists called him 'The Nelson of the East' that, "It may be proper to compare me to Nelson, but not to Yi Sun-sin. He is too great to be compared to anyone." (Togo wrote in English in one of his journals that he was convinced he was the reincarnation of Nelson.)
Definitely saved the Korean peninsula from conquest. The Samurai and their Ashigaru were near unbeatable on land. If the Japanese conquer Korea and launch an invasion into Manchuria Eastern history might be very different.

Btw Koreans make some good ass war films
 
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Duo

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IMHO Rommel is over-rated...........a brilliant battlefield commander but in over his head with the more complex parts of 'generaling'

Guderian was far better and understood the more technical parts of the job.............Achtung Panzer is pretty much required reading on the subject and his battlefield performance was good.........he got pulled to staff level stuff too soon and was ignored too much as he tried to fix the problems with german armor and armored strategy

Manstein is,probably,the best of the NAZI lot,in whole.................but they ha a ton of guys that would have shined brilliantly in any other army..........like Hoth or Hoepner or Kesselring or Model...................too many to list really............
Guderian had the massive advantage of living to write Panzer Leader, while Rommel's greatest publicists were Churchill (which pissed Hitler off) and actor James Mason (and The Desert Fox got positive reviews from the likes of Liddell Hart despite flagrant inaccuracies).
 
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SwollenGoat

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Guderian had the massive advantage of living to write Panzer Leader, while Rommel's greatest publicists were Churchill (which pissed Hitler off) and actor James Mason (and The Desert Fox got positive reviews from the likes of Liddell Hart despite flagrant inaccuracies).
I agree that post war stuff and weird hero making had a lot to do with reps after the war.................Heinz's book was self serving to say the least............but he did put up the goods on the battlefield and,like the aforementioned Liddell Hart [was unsure if I should mention his Strategy book while talking heinz] was an early advocate of the sort of war that was to win battles in WWII

rommel was a press darling even during the war because of Winston and the myth of the against all odds stuff............in popular culture he is probably seen as the best the german had,even today,because of it.........and Id even pick him against better all around generals in a SMALL engagement,where personal presence matters more..........

but he was,IMHO,outclassed by maybe a couple dozen other,lesser known german generals of the time..........guys who excelled at the less glorious defense,or who were just one among many on the eastern front instead of the top star...........

Harts book is great,BTW..................another must read for any armchair general.................
 
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Duo

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you never cease to amaze me :cheers

eclectic knowledge is the best knowledge :lol::good
Well Goat, you set standards which challenge me, as you and I operate on different wavelengths. (Patriots/Colts icon Raymond Berry cited different wavelengths as the reason he worked so hard with Johnny Unitas on pass patterns and timing routes, since Berry wasn't the sort of ridiculous talent Jimmy Orr was, Orr being a laid back sort who Unitas simply told where to go and when to be there. Tom Brady could just make silent eye contact with receivers and they'd know what to do. Unitas and Berry were quite the opposite.)

In my material life and inner mind, I'm a pack rat cluttered with vast rooms of junk accumulated over decades. I freely admit to Googling liberally to refresh and clarify my recall, but it helps to know where to look in the first place, and you're long familiar with me citing specific references which don't exist online. (Jim Morrison did this with his college professors. He'd produce information which they doubted existed, then confirm he was using published books by contacting the Library of Congress. Not surprisingly, both the Lizard King and myself are fans of Hieronymus Bosch and other weird Dutch shit, like generally obscure admirals.)
 
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May 23, 2013
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tahiti
Where does Rommel and Guderian rank among the greats?
top 25 somewhere...
Rommel gets overrated.
He was brilliant but I rate guderian higher and also Walter model.. nicknamed : hitlers fireman.
Model probably the best defensive tactician of the last 200 years...
 
May 23, 2013
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tahiti
Hmm...do I detect some jingoism there? Certainly a fine admiral, but he lost the Two Days' Battle, while Stromboli and Augusta were indecisive. His death didn't occur during the sort of momentous triumph Nelson had at Trafalgar.

Some Dutch contrarians might even contradict your citation of de Ruyter with Hein (who I regard as a privateer rather than an admiral).
nah only dumb Dutch would do that..

Yeah de ruyter lost a few battles.. many times he was outnumbered.
Did not always get the full support of the Staten general (Dutch leaders).

we dutch underrate him..
I once saw this documentary with all kinds of naval experts (yanks, brits etc) they all had them in their top 5
Most of them had this Chinese guy on nr 1
I forgot his name but prob you know who I mean

ps his death may not be in a big battle but in a smaller one but still..
When news of his death got out and the Dutch sailed back to holland everywhere they passed they got salute fire outta respect.
By the king of France by the dunquerqe privateers etc