[Avidlemon]

does taking the route of english/commonweatlh/british/euro level take too long and deny some fighters some valuable experience of taking part in contests against different styles of fighters? Because let's face it, as good as the british scene is, there aren't too many different styles to come up against. Groves going to fight in america a couple of times is a good example of someone getting a different angle and experience of different styles. Or does going the traditional route give fighters time to find out who they are as a fighter and what their strengths are before making a step up?

I've never been able to decide. But you hear a lot of pro's saying they prefer the traditional route if they can take it.

Does taking the traditional route really prepare our fighters for the best is what i suppose i'm really asking?

 

[Bryn]

I guess there are two ways promoters tend to go about building their fighters in this country, each way can be identified by the titles which are contested.

You've got the traditional: Commonwealth => British => European => Alphabelt.

Then you've got the new era: British (Not essential) => Alphabelt International => Alphabelt Intercontinental => Alphabelt Eliminator => Alphabelt Eliminator => Alphabelt Eliminator => Alphabelt Eliminator => Alphabelt Eliminator => Alphabelt Final Eliminator => Vacant Interim Alphabelt => World Alphabelt.

If anything, I would say the traditional route should show a steady increase in class, atleast until contesting for a World Alphabelt. Just look at Cleverly's rise to getting hold of the WBO belt, he gradually built up opposition and won all the traditional belts (albeit, sometimes over the phone) until he finally got his hands on an Alphabelt. I do prefer the traditional route, but really as long as the competition is good then I'm a happy bunny.

 

[Avidlemon]

Promotors and the alphbet pricks ruin everything.

I think that the euro route is infected too though. WBO euro title for fucks sake! Almost as bad as the pan-american feltching titles that are knocking about!

But i agree with much of what you say to be honest.

 

[Danny]

Just look at Cleverly's rise to getting hold of the WBO belt, he gradually built up opposition and won all the traditional belts (albeit, sometimes over the phone)

:lol:

-

I think the true answer for me is a combination of both. I like to see the traditional route because I think as Bryn says, it shows a steady increase in class and you are able to easier measure continued steps-up, it's a very concise and managable way of progressing. However, as mentioned, I think fighters need to acclimatize to different styles, different atmospheres and situations. If you look at somebody like Rick Godding, I think he done his career the world of wonders going over to Germany to box Rafael Jackiewicz. Beatable opponent certainly, but you have to be a at a certain level to be able to do so. He showed he could do it despite not getting the decision, I think he will have learnt massively from that fight and he's in a position to come back and work his way in to a shot at the British sometime soon.

If I were managing a fighter, rather than getting mixed up in alphabet intercontinental rubbish, I'd try and stick as close to possible as the traditional route, but mix in some other more off-tangent fights too, like chucking them in with experienced gatekeeper types like Jackiewicz, or getting them slots on shows boxing abroad, extra learning experiences like.

 

[SimonTemplar]

Froch went the traditional route and got there, and Chisora went the traditional route and got there in 13 fights or so. So I see what you're saying, absolutely, but I think that it can be done from the traditional platform and that carries more chance of bringing with it a solid domestic fanbase. People like David Price have gone the traditional route and he is now pretty young for his division and being talked about internationally. I think that the guys who eschew the traditional to follow Bryn's funny-but-unfortunately-accurate post risk going forward without an established domestic fanbase and without a full skill set. Both approaches can get you there, but the traditional still, in my view, gets you there with more chance of success. Apprenticeships can be boring - particularly these days, when many want everything yesterday - but they exist for a reason.

 

[sean87ph]

I know Hennessy is a fan of the traditional route, and tries to get ranking's with the WBC, Maloney done the same with Lennox and i see him doing the same with price.

Difficult to say whats better as some fighters will take different routes and go on to claim equal success and similar resumes, id swing with traditional, however that is a good point about the way it's good to take fighters the states early on a couple of times in there career to encounter different styles and gain experience they might not in this country.

This new way confuses me, fighting for all these intercontinental/international belts, can never keep track of who's got what.

 

[Bryn]

I think we can all agree that it's diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks. It really depends on the fighter and the division in which they fight in.

 

[Bryn]

Promotors and the alphbet pricks ruin everything.

I think that the euro route is infected too though. WBO euro title for fucks sake! Almost as bad as the pan-american feltching titles that are knocking about!

But i agree with much of what you say to be honest.

I don't think the BBBoC will sanction a fight for the WBO European title.

pan-american feltching titles

:lol:

 

[Avidlemon]

I know Hennessy is a fan of the traditional route, and tries to get ranking's with the WBC, Maloney done the same with Lennox and i see him doing the same with price.

Difficult to say whats better as some fighters will take different routes and go on to claim equal success and similar resumes, id swing with traditional, however that is a good point about the way it's good to take fighters the states early on a couple of times in there career to encounter different styles and gain experience they might not in this country.

This new way confuses me, fighting for all these intercontinental/international belts, can never keep track of who's got what.

Ricky Hatton had a couple of fights in the states earlier in his career i believe. I just don't see the harm of broadening ones horizons. However, the traditional route hasn't done some fighters any harm.

 

[SimonTemplar]

And Cleverly fought in the US on the Calzaghe-Hopkins undercard. I'd favour the traditional route but with a couple of non-title bouts in the US early on.

 

[sean87ph]

Ricky Hatton had a couple of fights in the states earlier in his career i believe. I just don't see the harm of broadening ones horizons. However, the traditional route hasn't done some fighters any harm.

Benn had a spell in the states under uncle Bob, when he fought Barkley, De Witt and some others after he lost to Watson, that was more a of a rebuilding though i suppose.

It can be invaluable experience, in some other countries you could be up against guys who have nothing and don't just turn up to survive they want to make a statement themselves and you cant have it all your own way.

 

[Libertarian]

Typically I'd opt for the traditional route, but I think experience of fighting away from home is important, and very few of our fighters do it anywhere near often enough.

The lower the weight class the more likely I'd say opt for inter-alphabetty titles - there's more depth in other parts of the world.... not many decent bantams come from Eastern Europe, or Spain, France or Italy.... but there's hundreds from central America and Asia.

 

[Danny]

Froch went the traditional route and got there, and Chisora went the traditional route and got there in 13 fights or so. So I see what you're saying, absolutely, but I think that it can be done from the traditional platform and that carries more chance of bringing with it a solid domestic fanbase. People like David Price have gone the traditional route and he is now pretty young for his division and being talked about internationally. I think that the guys who eschew the traditional to follow Bryn's funny-but-unfortunately-accurate post risk going forward without an established domestic fanbase and without a full skill set. Both approaches can get you there, but the traditional still, in my view, gets you there with more chance of success. Apprenticeships can be boring - particularly these days, when many want everything yesterday - but they exist for a reason.

Just a point, mentioning Froch and then saying it's a better way to build a fanbase, Froch barely had one outside of his hometown until he demolished Bute.

 

[SimonTemplar]

Just a point, mentioning Froch and then saying it's a better way to build a fanbase, Froch barely had one outside of his hometown until he demolished Bute.

:lol: I know what you're saying (although I think fame kicked in before the Bute fight) but the traditional route is still, imho, a more reliable way to build a domestic fanbase than random alphabet titles on odd channels.

 

[Danny]

:lol: I know what you're saying (although I think fame kicked in before the Bute fight) but the traditional route is still, imho, a more reliable way to build a domestic fanbase than random alphabet titles on odd channels.

True, although I'm not sure it really matters, just a case of getting a network as a vehicle btw.

 

[SimonTemplar]

True, although I'm not sure it really matters, just a case of getting a network as a vehicle btw.

Yes, although I wonder if that is still the case with BoxNation - I'm not sure they're doing the numbers to be enough for their fighters on their own.

 

[Havik]

Then you've got the new era: British (Not essential) => Alphabelt International => Alphabelt Intercontinental => Alphabelt Eliminator => Alphabelt Eliminator => Alphabelt Eliminator => Alphabelt Eliminator => Alphabelt Eliminator => Alphabelt Final Eliminator => Vacant Interim Alphabelt => World Alphabelt.

:lol:

The "traditional" route is more fun for us fans, and probably more motivating for the fighters because they get to fight for prestigious titles rather than utterly meaningless baubles.

Downside of the traditional route is that once your fighting for those belts, there's no way to select who you're going to fight anymore. Going the International/Intercontinental/Interplanetary route lets you pick the right opponents at the right time. With the traditional route you fight whoever happens to be going for the same belt at the same time, so the quality and style of the opponents you'll be facing depends on luck rather than careful matchmaking. No wonder promoters occasionally choose another path for their brightest prospects, especially as going for inter-.. baubles can only strengthen their relationship with the alphabets.

Edit: One more thing. The gap between European and Alphabelt level can be huge, especially at the lower weights. Inter-... alphabelts and alphabelt eliminators can help fill that gap.

 

[Bryn]

:lol:

The "traditional" route is more fun for us fans, and probably more motivating for the fighters because they get to fight for prestigious titles rather than utterly meaningless baubles.

Downside of the traditional route is that once your fighting for those belts, there's no way to select who you're going to fight anymore. Going the International/Intercontinental/Interplanetary route lets you pick the right opponents at the right time. With the traditional route you fight whoever happens to be going for the same belt at the same time, so the quality and style of the opponents you'll be facing depends on luck rather than careful matchmaking. No wonder promoters occasionally choose another path for their brightest prospects, especially as going for inter-.. baubles can only strengthen their relationship with the alphabets.

Edit: One more thing. The gap between European and Alphabelt level can be huge, especially at the lower weights. Inter-... alphabelts and alphabelt eliminators can help fill that gap.

 

[Avidlemon]

Surely though the problem with the alphabet soup is that picking the "right" opponents does fighters a diservice in the sense that they do not help them prepare for the higher classes?

 

[Danny]

Surely though the problem with the alphabet soup is that picking the "right" opponents does fighters a diservice in the sense that they do not help them prepare for the higher classes?

It depends entirely on who you pick. If you're picking the easiest possible route to a title, sure. But there's nothing to stop 'handpicking' opponents who are actually going to be a challenge if you want your guy to actually be prepared and not out of his depth when he gets to world-level and fighting for titles.