[Vano-irons]

Reading this issue of boxin monthly, and there's a segment on Sonny Liston. Two guys who worked with Liston claimed that 'Sonny wouldve made a Frazier fight just as one sided as when Big George demolished Joe in Jamaica'.

This quote refers to the time when Frazier was champ after Ali was in exile. Could Liston have feasibly beaten Smokin Joe, even after the phantom punch?

How do the two match up prime for prime?

 

[Vic]

IMHO Liston is a tad overrated by some......He was a better boxer than Foreman, but not a harder hitter, nor better when attacking his opponents, Foreman´s offensive footwork was definitely more effective in my view.....And George was tougher too, and stronger...
With that said, I don´t like Frazier in this one...wouldn´t be as quick as vs Foreman....but I see Frazier being stopped in the mid-rounds.....

 

[Vano-irons]

I pretty much agree with you Vic.

But do you think the Liston post Ali 2 beats that Frazier? It'll certainly be a lot closer

 

[Luf]

Frazier and Liston are pretty similar in size and shape.

Liston has a great jab but it's slow, Frazier is an Atg at slipping the jab and firing away.

Punch for punch not many can match Liston, but Frazier has the strength and power to force Liston back as he pounds away at his face and body. I think that when Liston does get his shot off, he won't land enough to finish Joe off.

Liston was never one for late knockouts neither so I pick Frazier to stop him about the 11th.

If Joe was any smaller I'd have to pick Liston but he's big enough that size alone won't win it (as it would if it was say Liston v Rocky)

 

[Vano-irons]

I was waiting for you to get here Luf.

Again, are you taking them at a prime for prime scenario, or Liston post Ali?

 

[Teeto]

I like Liston in this, I do conceive that Frazier might overwhelm him, but that's only because he's Joe Frazier, but on the basis of a styles match up, I like Liston

 

[GazOC]

Vic, I know what you mean. Liston still has that aura about him 50 odd years later. I think prime Frazier is probably fast and relentless enough to get past the prime Liston jab and that is the key to the fight IMHO. You could argue that Liston could use his power to "do a Foreman" on Frazier but I don't see Joe having as much trouble getting to Liston or having to eat as many shots as he did against Foreman.

 

[Luf]

I was waiting for you to get here Luf.

Again, are you taking them at a prime for prime scenario, or Liston post Ali?

Post Ali I favour Frazier to knock him out.

Prime for Prime I think they'd exchange victories in a series but my heart says that Liston isn't fast enough to outland Frazier, doesn't have a solid enough chin to ship the large number of left hooks and I think his main assets (strength and jabbing) are neutralised by Frazier's bob and weave style as well as his forward momentum.

For Liston to beat a swarmer he needs to keep them on the end of that jab and hurt them everytime they get inside, I just don't think he's big enough to keep Joe outside.

I know foreman detsroyed Joe but look how many times he had to hit him to do so, Liston would have to land some serious leather to do the same and I don't see it as being the likely outcome, that being said it could happen and I think over 2 fights both score stoppage victories.

 

[GazOC]

In addition to the obvious power I think Foremans sheer size was a major problen to Frazier.

 

[Michael]

In a prime for prime matchup, I cant look past Liston. Although he's not quite as big as Foreman or as hard hitting, I think hed be a little too much for Frazier. Its like two tanks colliding, and the one that wins will the one with superior artillery, which I believe Liston has. He had a very good jab, solid one punch knockout power in each hand, a long reach, and at his best was a tough, durable fighter. Frazier would get in close and land against him most definitely, but I don't think Frazier will be able to deal with whats coming at in the long run. Liston mid rounds stoppage, it would certainly be more competitive than Foreman-Frazier. Would be a great war while it lasts me thinks.

If Frazier and Liston were to meet in the late sixties, I think Sonny would have slipped significantly that a prime Frazier could beat him. Liston's durability seemed to have faded quite a bit by the time Frazier came on the scene. Frazier late stoppage.

 

[Vic]

I pretty much agree with you Vic.

But do you think the Liston post Ali 2 beats that Frazier? It'll certainly be a lot closer

No, Liston post-Ali 2 IMO wouldn´t beat Frazier....Liston would still land some big punches, maybe score a KD, but I see Frazier winning it in that scenario....

Vic, I know what you mean. Liston still has that aura about him 50 odd years later. I think prime Frazier is probably fast and relentless enough to get past the prime Liston jab and that is the key to the fight IMHO. You could argue that Liston could use his power to "do a Foreman" on Frazier but I don't see Joe having as much trouble getting to Liston or having to eat as many shots as he did against Foreman.

Agreed.

 

[Yiddle]

After losing the first few rounds i like frazier in this fight as already stated frazier is going to get past that jab and he will be rockin and a rollin listons ribs he will be a pokin frazier wins this fight when liston asks joe to stop smokin












ops

 

[Sittin Sonny]

Liston has a great jab but it's slow, Frazier is an Atg at slipping the jab and firing away.

Not only is Liston's jab slow-sih, but he had a bad habit of overextending himself and leaving himself open when he threw it. That's not a good combination against someone whose stock in trade is slipping jabs and countering.

Having said that, Liston did have a tremendous left hook, and Frazier was both hittable and hurtable. Still, if Liston isn't able to stop Frazier within the first 3 rounds, I think Frazier is too fast and skilled on the inside and stops him in about 7-8 rounds.

 

[Cormac]

Frazier and Liston are pretty similar in size and shape.

Liston has a great jab but it's slow, Frazier is an Atg at slipping the jab and firing away.

Punch for punch not many can match Liston, but Frazier has the strength and power to force Liston back as he pounds away at his face and body. I think that when Liston does get his shot off, he won't land enough to finish Joe off.

Liston was never one for late knockouts neither so I pick Frazier to stop him about the 11th.

If Joe was any smaller I'd have to pick Liston but he's big enough that size alone won't win it (as it would if it was say Liston v Rocky)

Liston is clearly the bigger man above the waist I cant see why you would say they are similar
Liston has an inch in biceps ,2inches in chest ,a bigger neck, fists,and a huge reach advantage.

He also has two handed power, better boxing ability, a great jab, and in his prime, better durability. Frazier has only foot and hand speed, but unlike Ali he would be coming in all the time.Liston's poor footwork would not be a factor because Frazier would always be there in front of him.
Liston is the template for the fighter that a small swarmer like Frazier should avoid.
He gets wasted inside 4 rds.

 

[Powerpuncher]

Liston is all wrong for Frazier. Frazier's defense is just too leaky to mess with such a big hitter for one. Then there's the fact Liston's range of his jab and right will land first. Then there's the fact that when Frazier gets on the inside where he wants to be he has to contend with Liston's sharp uppercuts and hooks.

So Liston KO sooner or later but Frazier has more heart so you never know.

Frazier and Liston are pretty similar in size and shape.

Liston has a great jab but it's slow, Frazier is an Atg at slipping the jab and firing away.

It looks slow against Ali, but see more of his fights, it's actually pretty quick.

 

[Screamin' Al Pacino]

Frazier eats his soul!

 

[Luf]

Yeah I changed my mind since then.

Anyone looks slow compared to Ali and Liston has probably one of the best jabs in history. His main weakness for me is footspeed but he won't have to go looking for Frazier so that's not an issue.

Liston within 4.

 

[It's Ovah]

It looks slow against Ali, but see more of his fights, it's actually pretty quick.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it "pretty quick"; it got to its target fast enough, but Liston was very slow to retract it, which would leave Frazier with a lot of countering opportunities if he were able to consistently slip it. Where Frazier might have trouble was with the sheer offensive force Liston was able to muster with his jab. He'd be forced to bob and weave a lot deeper to ensure he can get his way inside. If he were to be merely clipped by it it might still have sufficient force to mess up his footwork and keep him from getting into optimal range. And like you said, Liston was very good on the inside, with short clubbing power in combinations that might see Frazier hitting the deck. That's more or less the question here. Can Frazier effectively neutralise the jab or does Liston disrupt him enough to take him out sometime before the final bell? I lean slightly towards the latter, but Frazier being Frazier it's hard to count him out against anyone that hasn't already done the job on him.

 

[Powerpuncher]

I wouldn't go so far as to call it "pretty quick"; it got to its target fast enough, but Liston was very slow to retract it, which would leave Frazier with a lot of countering opportunities if he were able to consistently slip it. Where Frazier might have trouble was with the sheer offensive force Liston was able to muster with his jab. He'd be forced to bob and weave a lot deeper to ensure he can get his way inside. If he were to be merely clipped by it it might still have sufficient force to mess up his footwork and keep him from getting into optimal range. And like you said, Liston was very good on the inside, with short clubbing power in combinations that might see Frazier hitting the deck. That's more or less the question here. Can Frazier effectively neutralise the jab or does Liston disrupt him enough to take him out sometime before the final bell? I lean slightly towards the latter, but Frazier being Frazier it's hard to count him out against anyone that hasn't already done the job on him.

Liston looked slow retracting his jab against Ali, not so much in his other fights, look how quick he throws and retracts it here against Williams

Even if Frazier slips the jab he hardly has the right counter to make his opponent pay, he's looking to step to his left to throw the left hook and then he's opening himself up to right counters or uppercuts

Also I don't think Frazier is a master jab slipper, I mean he could slip punches well at times but often ate a punch to land one and got hit allot.

Like I say Frazier has shown more heart and he has a hell of a punch himself so you can't write him off, but he's under gunned in the shoot out.

 

[Johnstown]

Liston but who the fuck knows....