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It's sad that you feel that way, I have had some healthy and enjoyable conversations in here with those who are willing not to attack me. I don't know why it appears so many are unwilling to accept those with differing views without turning it into an opportunity to Bully or having a slanging match.
Truth is you attack and insult anyone who doesn't agree with you. A negative comment about AJ or a positive comment about Fury just has you lose your shit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #163 ·
EH says Usyk has offered to train AJ! 🤣. Be interesting to see what he would do although even the best 10 trainers of all time couldn't fix post-Ruiz AJ. I still wont believe this will happen till they are literally in the ring but I'm still slightly incredulous that Fury actually gave up 40% to a busted flush... He thinks he the greatest but he managed to negotiate a bad deal with his own brain. 🤣🤣
 

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EH says Usyk has offered to train AJ! 🤣. Be interesting to see what he would do although even the best 10 trainers of all time couldn't fix post-Ruiz AJ. I still wont believe this will happen till they are literally in the ring but I'm still slightly incredulous that Fury actually gave up 40% to a busted flush... He thinks he the greatest but he managed to negotiate a bad deal with his own brain. 🤣🤣
Funny, you were the one who was so emphatic Fury would NEVER offer AJ better than a 20/80 split and equally emphatic AJ should NEVER accept anything like a 20/80 split.

Fury offers a fair and reasonable 40/60 and you are 'incredulous'?

No, you are just wrong again....that's all.
 

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No that’s was over a year and a half ago. First they announced they were going be shutting down then quite a few weeks afterwards they had a second announcement and said they would remain open. Problem is by the time second announcement came along stating the forum would remain open most participants had already gone elsewhere.

Which is a shame some very Knowledgable e posters used be here.
Yes, it's a real shame and there is little sign of them coming back. I have looked in from time to time and been amazed at the lack of activity, and at the solid boxing news which seems sometimes not to get a mention. I live in hope of a return to past glories, but hope is slowly fading.

It's sad that you feel that way, I have had some healthy and enjoyable conversations in here with those who are willing not to attack me. I don't know why it appears so many are unwilling to accept those with differing views without turning it into an opportunity to Bully or having a slanging match.
I don't think that that's entirely true - FWIW I think, these days (and I saw your arrival here), that you are looking for it. You are so used to being attacked that you now lead with the defence, even when no attack is incoming, so such a high proportion of exchanges with you end in acrimony that it is probably a better idea for several of us not to engage.

Personally, I like both of them and dislike both of them at different points - my wife and I are both big fight fans, been to several live (Hatton-Tszyu being a high point), and now have three of our kids heavily into the game. Two of them have posters of fighters on their bedroom wall, the five of us watched the Usyk fight at our place in Portugal using a VPN via my work laptop so we could get it on the TV with snacks (the kids), wine (the ever-lovely Mrs Templar) and a nice Italian beer I discovered on our trip (Ichnusa, bought a couple of crates for the onward travel). It was a faff, but we're fans. We're overall fans of what AJ brought to the sport, and from a fighting perspective, his performance in the last fight was great and restored a lot of faith. However, his rant in the ring afterwards was unpleasant and indefensible. Just a torrent of expletives and on occasion telling the fans that they just don't understand. It wasn't nice, the language was off-brand for his carefully crafted persona, and it was thoroughly disrespectful of Usyk (grabbing the mic), the sport (flinging the belts away like trash would (rightly) attract a ban in several sports) and, frankly, the wider context - Usyk returned from war to take this fight, only took the second one as it helps his country more to keep him in play in top level sport, people are actually dying there and he was very likely to reference all of that in his post-victory speech. However, AJ chose to steal that moment (and I'm getting angry again now remembering it) to complain that he trained really hard and really really really wanted to win and life's unfair. As a moment of self-awareness, he probably hit an all-time sporting low. As a study in using a moment of international platform to make our country look small and arrogant, existing in a bubble outside of world events which are actually important, it was a masterclass. And by the time that Usyk had the mic, the moment had passed, the casual fans had switched off, the most impactful moment was gone. So within liking AJ and respecting the performance, that was a really sour note on which to end and it was squarely his fault (yes, his team could have leapt in, but he hires the team and the team follows his vibe, they're clearly closer to yes men at this point than they should be, or they would have saved him from himself. Hearn just took ten minutes off at a key moment, at his only real moment of work the whole evening, a shame).

But Fury is also pretty chaotic and far from pleasant all of the time. I really like the guy, read his book, overall think he's brilliant for the sport and is clearly genuinely talented, he's the only one who could give Usyk real issues imho (AJ did well but I thought the SD flattered him a bit, I had a UD by a couple more points IIRC). Fury consistently disrespects opponents, doesn't take responsibilities seriously, we never know whether he will make good on contractual commitments, and some of the Kinahan-type stuff is a real shame and downright dodgy.

Trouble is, you accuse other posters of being fanboys (and worse), lump anyone who makes one positive comment about Fury in with everyone else who has ever said something positive about Fury, and also (tellingly) in with anyone who has ever said anything remotely critical about AJ. You tend to speak on this subject in such broad, sweeping generalisations that you're almost bound either to offend someone, or to lose your impact and clarity of thought. II don't bother saying something positive about Fury in your threads as you will just tell me something along the lines of 'all you effing Fury fanboys are all the same, sucking one another off and hating on AJ who has saved the sport'. I can;'t engage with that sort of nonsense, you can't lump us all in together and expect anyone who wants a genuine discussion to engage, you're bound simply to get some flak as that is the tone you have struck. Even those who do debate the facts with you do it in such a fighty tone that that becomes the defining point. Many of your posts have been factually inaccurate on so many occasions that I'd either have to risk you picking a fight with me were I to point them out, or simply not reply as there is too much to unpack. I choose the latter option as it's simply less grief. I would have blocked you just to be spared the unpleasant noise that accompanies so many of your posts (and it is not all you, but equally the people you argue with don't have that issue with other posters (I have defended AJ several times and not been lambasted for it) so you must take a good portion of the responsibility. We all of us hold discourse according to the tone we set. Output garners input.), but I can't as the forum is so dead, these days, that without your started threads there would be precious little feed. I like many of your posts on other issues. But on AJ-Fury, you have lost your perspective, it is unpleasant to read and pointless to engage with. So I don't, even when I see stuff I could counter. Sorry, but it's the line of least resistance. I have four kids, two businesses and my wife has a big City job and we live in the middle of nowhere - I simply don't have the bandwidth to engage with it in the way it would need to be done.

And yes, sorry, I have rambled and generalised badly, it is not an exhaustive think piece, I'm sorry - but as you recently threatened to meet someone in a pub and put them in a coffin for something they said on a discussion group, you must see that the broad thrust of my point can't be entirely without merit.

Incidentally, I'm a big and trained bloke, reason I live in the country is that I had to move as I spent years chasing arms dealers across Europe so I need to keep my security tight as I have kids, and having spent those years dealing with some of the angriest, hardest and most toxic people in society, my personal experience is that there are people who shout about it, and there are people who do it. People are rarely both, and we all have our back story, so do please try to keep things in perspective on here as when you come out with that nonsense you make yourself and the forum look bad, and it won't get you where you want to get (assuming winning the moment and not being constantly trolled is a desirable outcome for you). This isn't important, it's some people chatting about sport, don't take it so hard and maybe others won't, either.

Sincere apologies for this unsolicited and rambling raft of waffle. I have been up all night, it was a pretty awful night, no sign of any sleep any time soon and have a pretty tough day in prospect. You didn't ask for a reply, but then nor did I, so I thought I'd pop up once and explain my point of view as a neutral observer these past many months as I had half an hour to kill waiting in the back of a van. Make of it what you will, please don't take it as an attack, and I fully intend to go back to sleep now and withdraw from the political side of this site again. I'm really just here for the boxing talk.

Should finish with some boxing I guess - I thought AJ could have been three rounds from winning in Usyk II (not saying I had the card there, but I can see how people did), but Usyk had some gears to go to which AJ couldn't match. Fight was good enough (AJ was nearly stopped in the first one, so incredible camp and transformation and vindicated the new trainer, amazingly) that Fury-AJ suddenly became interesting again. I think Fury stops him, although a little later than his own prediction, more like second half/late for me. But that's not said as a Fury fanboy - while there's no doubt that he won the Wilder trilogy, I had Wilder winning the first fight as I thought they gave Fury a long count in the 12th, should have been counted out for me.

Issue is, all the top guys have a thinner cv than it first appears, so noone has a classic pedigree in depth to make any predictions that solid, which is in part what makes it such a great era. You guys were comparing their records earlier in this thread - these days, people are too often, in my view, looking for someone to be the GOAT, so tend to assume a pedigree and background in top sportspeople which is not always there. If Hearn can hype up Dillian Whyte that hard and then state that Fury is clearly the best owing to that performance, then maybe neither of them has a record which entirely supports the ATG stuff they/those around them like to come out with? There's not a great deal there on either side in my view.

Sorry everybody. Nothing personal to anyone, off to work now, will go back to keeping my head down on the politics stuff. Just all please try to get along and be kinder: even if you think the other chap is an eejit, there's no need to tell him so!
 

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When dealing with someone with victim mentality, like we are here, it is important to establish a means of communication that won't trigger them. I would suggest, going forward, that nobody mentions the names Anthony Joshua and Tyson Fury and we should all get along swimmingly.

If things do get a little testy from time to time, I'd suggest we all hold hands and sing a chorus or two of kumbaya.

Peace out.
 

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When dealing with someone with victim mentality, like we are here, it is important to establish a means of communication that won't trigger them. I would suggest, going forward, that nobody mentions the names Anthony Joshua and Tyson Fury and we should all get along swimmingly.

If things do get a little testy from time to time, I'd suggest we all hold hands and sing a chorus or two of kumbaya.

Peace out.
It is clear from your post that you have not heard my singing voice. It would be unlikely to achieve the peace and harmony you seek.
 

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It is clear from your post that you have not heard my singing voice. It would be unlikely to achieve the peace and harmony you seek.

You too. One of my friends and myself were horsing around one day belting out songs and got them down on tape. We went back and listened to them and immediately came up with a name for our duo.

"The B-Flats" because he be flat and I be flat as far as a singing duo goes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #172 ·
Yes, it's a real shame and there is little sign of them coming back. I have looked in from time to time and been amazed at the lack of activity, and at the solid boxing news which seems sometimes not to get a mention. I live in hope of a return to past glories, but hope is slowly fading.



I don't think that that's entirely true - FWIW I think, these days (and I saw your arrival here), that you are looking for it. You are so used to being attacked that you now lead with the defence, even when no attack is incoming, so such a high proportion of exchanges with you end in acrimony that it is probably a better idea for several of us not to engage.

Personally, I like both of them and dislike both of them at different points - my wife and I are both big fight fans, been to several live (Hatton-Tszyu being a high point), and now have three of our kids heavily into the game. Two of them have posters of fighters on their bedroom wall, the five of us watched the Usyk fight at our place in Portugal using a VPN via my work laptop so we could get it on the TV with snacks (the kids), wine (the ever-lovely Mrs Templar) and a nice Italian beer I discovered on our trip (Ichnusa, bought a couple of crates for the onward travel). It was a faff, but we're fans. We're overall fans of what AJ brought to the sport, and from a fighting perspective, his performance in the last fight was great and restored a lot of faith. However, his rant in the ring afterwards was unpleasant and indefensible. Just a torrent of expletives and on occasion telling the fans that they just don't understand. It wasn't nice, the language was off-brand for his carefully crafted persona, and it was thoroughly disrespectful of Usyk (grabbing the mic), the sport (flinging the belts away like trash would (rightly) attract a ban in several sports) and, frankly, the wider context - Usyk returned from war to take this fight, only took the second one as it helps his country more to keep him in play in top level sport, people are actually dying there and he was very likely to reference all of that in his post-victory speech. However, AJ chose to steal that moment (and I'm getting angry again now remembering it) to complain that he trained really hard and really really really wanted to win and life's unfair. As a moment of self-awareness, he probably hit an all-time sporting low. As a study in using a moment of international platform to make our country look small and arrogant, existing in a bubble outside of world events which are actually important, it was a masterclass. And by the time that Usyk had the mic, the moment had passed, the casual fans had switched off, the most impactful moment was gone. So within liking AJ and respecting the performance, that was a really sour note on which to end and it was squarely his fault (yes, his team could have leapt in, but he hires the team and the team follows his vibe, they're clearly closer to yes men at this point than they should be, or they would have saved him from himself. Hearn just took ten minutes off at a key moment, at his only real moment of work the whole evening, a shame).

But Fury is also pretty chaotic and far from pleasant all of the time. I really like the guy, read his book, overall think he's brilliant for the sport and is clearly genuinely talented, he's the only one who could give Usyk real issues imho (AJ did well but I thought the SD flattered him a bit, I had a UD by a couple more points IIRC). Fury consistently disrespects opponents, doesn't take responsibilities seriously, we never know whether he will make good on contractual commitments, and some of the Kinahan-type stuff is a real shame and downright dodgy.

Trouble is, you accuse other posters of being fanboys (and worse), lump anyone who makes one positive comment about Fury in with everyone else who has ever said something positive about Fury, and also (tellingly) in with anyone who has ever said anything remotely critical about AJ. You tend to speak on this subject in such broad, sweeping generalisations that you're almost bound either to offend someone, or to lose your impact and clarity of thought. II don't bother saying something positive about Fury in your threads as you will just tell me something along the lines of 'all you effing Fury fanboys are all the same, sucking one another off and hating on AJ who has saved the sport'. I can;'t engage with that sort of nonsense, you can't lump us all in together and expect anyone who wants a genuine discussion to engage, you're bound simply to get some flak as that is the tone you have struck. Even those who do debate the facts with you do it in such a fighty tone that that becomes the defining point. Many of your posts have been factually inaccurate on so many occasions that I'd either have to risk you picking a fight with me were I to point them out, or simply not reply as there is too much to unpack. I choose the latter option as it's simply less grief. I would have blocked you just to be spared the unpleasant noise that accompanies so many of your posts (and it is not all you, but equally the people you argue with don't have that issue with other posters (I have defended AJ several times and not been lambasted for it) so you must take a good portion of the responsibility. We all of us hold discourse according to the tone we set. Output garners input.), but I can't as the forum is so dead, these days, that without your started threads there would be precious little feed. I like many of your posts on other issues. But on AJ-Fury, you have lost your perspective, it is unpleasant to read and pointless to engage with. So I don't, even when I see stuff I could counter. Sorry, but it's the line of least resistance. I have four kids, two businesses and my wife has a big City job and we live in the middle of nowhere - I simply don't have the bandwidth to engage with it in the way it would need to be done.

And yes, sorry, I have rambled and generalised badly, it is not an exhaustive think piece, I'm sorry - but as you recently threatened to meet someone in a pub and put them in a coffin for something they said on a discussion group, you must see that the broad thrust of my point can't be entirely without merit.

Incidentally, I'm a big and trained bloke, reason I live in the country is that I had to move as I spent years chasing arms dealers across Europe so I need to keep my security tight as I have kids, and having spent those years dealing with some of the angriest, hardest and most toxic people in society, my personal experience is that there are people who shout about it, and there are people who do it. People are rarely both, and we all have our back story, so do please try to keep things in perspective on here as when you come out with that nonsense you make yourself and the forum look bad, and it won't get you where you want to get (assuming winning the moment and not being constantly trolled is a desirable outcome for you). This isn't important, it's some people chatting about sport, don't take it so hard and maybe others won't, either.

Sincere apologies for this unsolicited and rambling raft of waffle. I have been up all night, it was a pretty awful night, no sign of any sleep any time soon and have a pretty tough day in prospect. You didn't ask for a reply, but then nor did I, so I thought I'd pop up once and explain my point of view as a neutral observer these past many months as I had half an hour to kill waiting in the back of a van. Make of it what you will, please don't take it as an attack, and I fully intend to go back to sleep now and withdraw from the political side of this site again. I'm really just here for the boxing talk.

Should finish with some boxing I guess - I thought AJ could have been three rounds from winning in Usyk II (not saying I had the card there, but I can see how people did), but Usyk had some gears to go to which AJ couldn't match. Fight was good enough (AJ was nearly stopped in the first one, so incredible camp and transformation and vindicated the new trainer, amazingly) that Fury-AJ suddenly became interesting again. I think Fury stops him, although a little later than his own prediction, more like second half/late for me. But that's not said as a Fury fanboy - while there's no doubt that he won the Wilder trilogy, I had Wilder winning the first fight as I thought they gave Fury a long count in the 12th, should have been counted out for me.

Issue is, all the top guys have a thinner cv than it first appears, so noone has a classic pedigree in depth to make any predictions that solid, which is in part what makes it such a great era. You guys were comparing their records earlier in this thread - these days, people are too often, in my view, looking for someone to be the GOAT, so tend to assume a pedigree and background in top sportspeople which is not always there. If Hearn can hype up Dillian Whyte that hard and then state that Fury is clearly the best owing to that performance, then maybe neither of them has a record which entirely supports the ATG stuff they/those around them like to come out with? There's not a great deal there on either side in my view.

Sorry everybody. Nothing personal to anyone, off to work now, will go back to keeping my head down on the politics stuff. Just all please try to get along and be kinder: even if you think the other chap is an eejit, there's no need to tell him so!
Well I respectfully disagree that I'm "Looking for it" a number of the frequent posters on this forum are unwilling to accept any other view than there own and will either belittle or insult you if you offer anything other than there sanctioned opinion. I cannot rule out there have been times were I may have been slightly more sensitive due to the constant abuse but to be honest if you had to put up with it for years so would you. While I would agree that AJ's speech was ill judged I don't believe it to be disrespectful for the very reason that he paid tribute to Usyk several times throughout it so while in hindsight I'm sure he would have hoped to handle it differently I think the pressure he has been under for a long time got to him and I'm not going to criticise a human showing emotion like that even if it wasn't super well judged.

I clearly hold a vastly different position on Fury to almost everyone who posts here and probably the majority of the wider casual sports watching public. I cannot understand why all the negatives that are so obvious to me seem to either be ignored or forgiven by others. When I look at any sportsperson, the first thing I look for is the way they comport themselves, their behaviour, their professionalism and to me Fury fails on every one of those. His continual lying, amateur antics and association with violent criminals (both Kinahan and his own Father) are far more important tells to me about his character and I that's the first thing I look for before skill in the sport. This to me is the exact opposite contrast to AJ who has been a consummate professional (even if sometimes dull) for all of his time as a professional. I also strongly believe that Fury's CV is inadequate to be considered the greatest of the generation having fought very few world class fighters (and the one he has fought most frequently is the most flawed).

For holding this view the majority of posters he consider me at best an idiot or worse and I'm therefore drawn to protect myself from their abuse. As much as you may struggle to believe it I don't start any of these fights, people either outright attack me or make derisory comments about my knowledge and given there is no oversight from any higher authority to prevent this behaviour I am forced to either let myself be bullied or fight back. What other options are there bar just leaving here and letting them win? I understand that for some this is a something that may put you off from engaging with me for which I am disappointed as it's clear you are someone who can hold a civilised debate without it degenerating.

To be clear I didn't suggest that I would meet someone in a pub and put them in a coffin, I suggested that if that individual treated others in a pub like he treated me he would end up in one.

Thank you for the reply I do very much appreciate it and I will do my best not to respond to the toxicity that some insist on spew in my direction but I can't guarantee anything I don't believe I should be held responsible for others vile behaviour.

Personally, I believe current AJ loses this fight probably on points but maybe late stoppage, that is likely because he will fight similarly to the second Usyk fight but will continue to fail to take the opportunities that made him such a spectacular fighter pre-Ruiz.

I also agree that you are right that it is far to easy to be sucked into a discussion of the GOAT when no-one has the resume to merit it. I think you can quiet impartially say that Fury doesn't have enough world class fights, AJ has lost too many and Usyk needs a longer HW career to even be in the conversation.
 

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You too. One of my friends and myself were horsing around one day belting out songs and got them down on tape. We went back and listened to them and immediately came up with a name for our duo.

"The B-Flats" because he be flat and I be flat as far as a singing duo goes.
Stick to shower and car singing. That's where I am at my best.
 

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Stick to shower and car singing. That's where I am at my best.

And I'm a white guy with 2 left feet, so "Chair Dancing" is my thing at functions where a dance floor is present.

I can do pretty good with the slow dances from the responses from the ladies I've danced with, but get into those swing type or alone on a dance floor with up tempo music and I look like a total spaz.
 

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To be clear I didn't suggest that I would meet someone in a pub and put them in a coffin, I suggested that if that individual treated others in a pub like he treated me he would end up in one.
You haven't offered any explanation for this little gem though, have you :

Fuck off you are the worst, you think the sun shines out of your arse, all you are is a hater who likes to bully people I hope you and all you family die in excruciating agony you worthless piece of shit.
Disgraceful, by any measure and I'm surprised you didn't receive a ban for it.
 

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AJ has just magically appeared in the WBC top 10. Just like that. Well I'll be.

View attachment 22363
That's what I was waiting to see, I've just had to go through the old rankings vs the latest update to see at whose expense Joshua has been inserted and I've seen now that it's Joseph Parker and JJJ who have dropped out, I imagine this is because their fight will now be for the WBO interim title. For that reason I have to concede that this decision (to put AJ in) is legit. He shouldn't just arrive in 6th place though I don't think since he's lost his last 2 but 14th or 15th would have been fine
 

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Discussion Starter · #178 ·
That's what I was waiting to see, I've just had to go through the old rankings vs the latest update to see at whose expense Joshua has been inserted and I've seen now that it's Joseph Parker and JJJ who have dropped out, I imagine this is because their fight will now be for the WBO interim title. For that reason I have to concede that this decision (to put AJ in) is legit. He shouldn't just arrive in 6th place though I don't think since he's lost his last 2 but 14th or 15th would have been fine
You genuinely only think he is 14th or 15th best HW?
 

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You genuinely only think he is 14th or 15th best HW?
Not at all I couldn't put together a top 10 without Joshua in there. I don't think the WBC believe Helenius is better than Joshua but in the rankings he's above him because he's won his last 2 by KO and Joshua's lost his last 2 on points. I believe the rankings are formed by a mixture of opinion on the fighter and recent form in sanctioned fights participated in or at least they should be imo.
 

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Not at all I couldn't put together a top 10 without Joshua in there. I don't think the WBC believe Helenius is better than Joshua but in the rankings he's above him because he's won his last 2 by KO and Joshua's lost his last 2 on points.

Nah, they only make Helenius #4 so tha the Wilder fight would seem more legit. I like Helenius a lot, but he's lost to three "good but not great" fighters and hasn't beaten any seriously top guys at all. Ranking him above undefeated Makmudov is ridiculous, and the same can be said for his being above AJ, if you want to accept the idea that AJ should be ranked by the WBC at all.

- but it is what it is.

 
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