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Is the Ring belt tarnished?

1466 Views 53 Replies 16 Participants Last post by  Batkilt
Boxing is a muddle with all the titles that are on offer, Numerous sanctioning bodies offering belts willy nilly, from proper titles to interim, silver, regular, emeritus, international, incontinental, regional etc. In the insane world of belt holders, the Ring belt has been seen as the one fighters would like to have, as recognition of being the man of the division.

But, lately the policy was changed in order to have more belts occupied. GBP has been accused of turning the magazine into a propaganda rag & there have been concerns that the policy change will basically start to benefit his stable of fighters.

At present we have

H - Wladmir Klitscho
C - Yoan Pablo Hernandez
LH - Chad Dawson
SM - Andre Ward
M - Sergio Martinez
LM - Saul Alvarez
W - Floyd Mayweather
LW - Danny Garcia
L - Vacant
JL - Vacant
F - Mikey Garcia
JF - Guillermo Rigondeaux
B - Vacant
JB - Vacant
F - Akira Yaegashi
JFY - Vacant
STW - Vacant

Taking from the list I was not aware Saul Alvarez was classed as the Ring champ, I thought PBF was the no.1 in the division if I'm correct so the No.2 & 3 contenders would have fought for it in their "unification" fight. A disputed title for some is the Fly title held by Akira Yaegashi, who holds the WBC & Lineal version, but who beat a weak holder & has competition from Juan Estrada, the WBA & WBO champ who some rate as the No.1 for that weight group. I have no problem with Yaegashi being the champ but it does highlight an issue, the champ is not always seen as the real deal in their particular division.

From the list I have highlighted the fighters who I would certainly agree as the being the champ for whatever reason but that's my personal view, the others not so sure due to not fighting all available contenders or being installed as champ just to fill vacancy.

What are your thoughts on the current list & do you see the belt as being another trinket?
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The main problem is that recently their rankings have just been getting worse. In general though, they still have the best champions. It's hard to disagree too much with any of the current holders.
I agree with Roe. The actual champions are ok, but their rankings as a whole are utter dogshite. Broner as #5 p4p is brilliant, as is the inclusion of Bradley in the top 10, when he is something like 8th in the welterweight rankings
Interesting, so would you guys say the belt is less valuable due to the ratings being shit?
In a way, yes. If, for argument sake, Burns beats Abril, I think he should be considered a ring champion, as I think both should be rated higher than Vazquez (assuming that Broner no longer applies with the move up in weight). But Vazquez is rated above the pair of them. Again, this isn't a huge outrage as a case can be made for Miguel. But you get what I mean
Yep certainly do.
I guess it doesn't make much difference, seeing as their rankings outside the top 2 or 3 are mostly meaningless due to their being no mandatorys or anything.

Probably the biggest issue actually is that the title still doesn't get proper recognition anyway. People will still refer to Wlad as IBF/WBO/IBO/WBA Super/ZBYBZABZVA champion rather than the ring or real world champion.
I don't see where the dispute is tbh. Yaegashi is the World Flyweight Champion by virtue of beating the man who beat the man etc. The World Champion isn't always going to be the best in the division. Such is the way combat sports work.

To me a disputed title is where there's no clear lineage but a multitude of alphabelt holders.
I agree that he is the champ from beating the man who beat the man etc, that's why I highlighted him. I've seen it argued that Viloria was the the top man after beating Marquez so Estrada would now be top man.
I've often thought this might not actually be a bad way to go. They would have to get more stars but a Dana White style benevolent dictator (he's not perfect) who has control over the proper belt and basically forces matches to happen and has a monopoly over promotion etc is what we all cry out for. Im not saying it has to be GBP, TR could do it or someone, but if they got enough top 10 fighters over a spread of divisions and tied them into contracts etc it could work that we actually get somewhere as other promotions would die off. Obviously, you'd still get anomalies like Fedor being p4p no1 and MMA legend and not being UFC champion but still it's been fairly successful in showing who is the best fighter in the world and forcing them to fight the best.

It's unlikely to happen unless there's a monumental shift or a billionaire wants to save boxing but still
Like you stated, unlikely to happen. Too many countries with promoters who will look after their own interests. It is a Utopian concept & boxing could benefit from a UFC structure but it would be a closed shop, creating the Fedor situation you mentioned.

If you want good rankings go to the link above.

The Ring is owned by Goldenboy. End of story really. Is Alvarez & Garcia the true champion at there weights, no chance.
Are these the official CHB rankings or just yours. I noticed @Roe stated rankings are basically pointless due them being circumnavigated by promoters, fighters & the like. I agree with this statement, they are now meaningless.

The thread was really about how people view the Ring belt at this present time, for me it's still the belt to aim for, but maybe tarnished due to what others have stated about their abysmal rankings & maybe become a title for GBP fighters in the future.
Fedor is the only example where this happened, and that was more the fault of his team than the UFC.
I still wouldn't work. MMA is done in Franchise's like wrestling, Boxing is too entrenched in it's historical structure & too many opportunities for many promoters to make money doing what they are doing now. Maybe Fedor didn't want to enslave himself under Dana?
Wladamir Klitscko has managed to do it.
Wlad ain't really managed it if you take the benchmark of unifying the 4 majors (wbc,wba,ibf & wbo). In fact the only one I can truly think of that has done it was Hopkins @ 160. Calzaghe has a shout in that he won all four but only ever had 3 titles at one time.

Regarding your comment on what's the point, they kind of give a definition of who is the real champ in that division. Dawson is still champ @ 175, using the Ward fight to penalise him because he was weight weakened is a bit obtuse really. That result was nailed on, Ward should have moved up instead of making the fight a nonentity by making a guy kill himself to make the fight. It's an over hyped victory, not saying Ward wouldn't win if at the higher weight but the result don't count for much really.
I've always felt the rankings and that belt were little more than a romantic notion. Never seen the appeal.
yeah, they are really nowadays although I do pay more attention when they have the belt as they were not given out just for the fun, that may change soon tho.
But can Dawson still be considered the "Champion" at 175lbs when he hasn't had a fight there for a year, his next fight is against a Super Middleweight in Adonis Stevenson and after that he will be fighting Bellew/Chilemba!
Yep, Stripping for the sake of stripping annoys the hell out of me. Look at Ward with the wbc! If they are inactive say over 18 months then vacate it.

Regards Dawson, he's beat the big boys at his weight, Pascal, Tarver, Johnson & Hopkins. Hopkins is rightly No1 challenger & Chad proved his mettle against Bernard
Dawson lost to Tarver.

Your not stripping for the sake of stripping. Dawson was stripped from my rankings for perfectly valid reasons. He hasn't fought at the weight for over a year, and even when he returns it won't be against a ranked Light Heavyweight.

Based on the rules I have in place, if Dawson were to fight a ranked fighter, he would become champion again. Kovalev, Cleverly, Pascal, Bute. He could fight any of these guys and be re-instated as champion. Also in the meantime nobody can become champ without beating Dawson.
I mistakenly put Pascal, Hopkins beat him.

They are you're rules so you can do what you like with your rankings, that your preference. My reality is that he's the man @ 175, like I said I am against stripping just for the sake of it. Look at Erdei situation, maybe some considered Grachev (I think) as the champ due to linearity. It's subjective how you see but Dawson's still considered the champ by most fans & media.
Erdei is a perfect example of why you strip a guy of there title if there inactive or don't fight anybody.Michaelczewski held the Lineal title for 6 years but wen't long periods where he didn't defend agaisnt anybody decent, and made no attempt to defend against Roy Jones Jnr. Erdei picked up the title and did the same thing, he went 7 years without defending against a top15 opponent, and retired twice. No we are supposed to think Granhev, who lost convincingly to Bute is the true World Champion at 175lbs? There is no arguement for that.

You can argue that Dawson is. But he is still ranked No.1, you still have to beat him to be the champion. I think thats fair. If Dawson keeps on fighting Super Middleweights, and Kovalev goes out and beats Hopkins, Pascal & Cleverly it will only be fair he is considered ahead of him.
I said it's you're rankings but I hate the stripping for the sake of it. I've explained the grace period I would give. I ain't gonna go into an historical debate about the L/Heavy title, for me Dawson is the champ, he's proved it.
What do you think is a fair grace period?
I stated earlier in thread that 18 months is about right if they don't fight or fight in another division. You are talking to an old school guy, bring back 8 or 9 (cruiser has a legit case) divisions, 15 round fights & I go with linear champs, not ideal in some cases but you get the idea who is the best if you follow boxing.

see this thread about the RJJ debate -
With my rankings, the Champion must defend there title every 365 days against a top 15 fighter. Its not allot to ask. If the fighter is stripped for failing to do so, or they lose in another division, they drop down to No.1. But they don't have to fight the No.2/No.3, they just have to fulfill that obligation of fighting a ranked fighter to become the champion. I think thats even more kind than an 18 month grace period.

Dawson can fight Stevenson, and then fight Bellew/Chilemba who will be top 15 and retain his title, unless another fighter does something dramatic to become the NNo.1 which is highly unlikely.
It's a good theory you have there, no doubt. My take is there are variables to take into account, such as injuries, promotional disputes & delving into a new division. Champs throughout history have fought fighters who have come up from another division, it happens. Dawson should have had more fights, that for sure & I don't really know the reasons apart from going down in weight like a sucker to fight Ward. Will have to agree to disagree on this one, Rob.
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