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My Boxing Mystery only Sherlock Holmes MIGHT solve !!! Robinson/Bobby ***** ?

6048 Views 75 Replies 22 Participants Last post by  he grant, 
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I have posted this before, but it deserves another shot onTHIS forum...This truly occured to me...
In the early 1950s, an event happened that will puzzle me forever...I, and a buddy now deceased saw Ray Robinson decision a very good WW contender
Bobby ***** at an outdoor Arena in Coney Island, B'klyn, NY...I remember vividly recalling at the event that Ray Robinson fought Bobby ***** ONCE
before in Chicago on TV in Nov, 1950...And Robby won a decision over the lanky Florida boxer Bobby *****...I remember so clearly that
Ray Robinson was late arriving at the match, and about 1 hour later I watched from the top of the outdoor Arena Robinson arriving with his entourage
in a Fuscia colored Cadilac , hustling into the dressing room late..This I saw from the top of the stands peering down...
The fight was uneventful, but the mystery is this fight I SAW has never been recorded in any record book or box.Rec, and try as I could, no record exists
of this bought I watched in the early 1950s...I know from the record books that I have and from some boxing historians, that Ray Robinson did beat a
Billy Brown on Sept 4, 1950, TWO months BEFORE Robinson beat Bobby ***** in their first fight on tv ,Nov 8, 1950...
The fight I saw I recall was years after Robby beat Bobby ***** in 1950...So my mystery has never been solved...An immortal like Robinson
fought a bout in Coney Island Arena against a major boxing figure like Bobby ***** who once whipped Kid Gavilan, which I certainly SAW and
there is no record of this bout...Both Robinson and Bobby ***** are both dead and they would have solved my puzzle were I able to contact them..
A mystery to me indeed...My Bermuda Triangle...
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C, a couple of years ago, several prominent boxing historians tried to solve this puzzle with no success...I have searched record books,
Web sites, and come up short...As sure as I am replying to you I SAW this event occur, and I am still perplexed...The Coney Island Arena was torn down in the late 1950s, Ray Robinson is dead and Bobby ***** is dead, and I am still bewildered....
P.S. my gut feeling and my inner thoughts now is that Bobby ***** might have SUBSTITUTED for anothe boxer in this bout and the next day news report did not
mention ***** name but the original opponent...BUT there is NO record of Robby fighting any fighter in BKLYN NY, other than Bobby Brown
in 1950, two months before the first Robinson? ***** fight 1950.....It is a mystery meant for Sherlock Holmes to solve, but alas, he too is dead..
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Jay, this film you post was the bout between Ray Robinson and Bobby ***** Nov 8,1950 from Chicago
which I saw on our small tv screen...Two months BEFORE Ray Robinson did fight in the Coney Island opoen Arena a Bobby Brown
who was a short WW from New England...THE fight i WATCHED WAS i AM SURE, their SECOND fight, a couple of years LATER at
the open air Coney Island Arena...Of that I am CERTAIN...as i posted before I saw Robinson coming out of his Fuscia Caddy LATE for this
meaningless bout...We in the crowd were restless waiting for Robby to arrive for the main event bout...
Very often at night I still rack my brain to find an answer as to why such an immortal as Robinson [whom I saw years before with my dad]
fought a bout with a major figure as Bobby ***** in Bklyn, NY, which is not in a record book ? But see it I did..If I could contact a relative of Bobby *****
who resided in Florida, they might solve this mystery.....Thanks...,
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Jay, I looked up the website you post about the death of Bobby ***** from Florida...
Well even this article is WRONG stating that the deceased Bobby ***** was a SOUTHPAW...
As I saw him and as YOUR film clip shows ***** was an orthodox fighter, Not a southpaw.
The plot thickens...
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Jay said:
Just to clarify so I know when I next do a google - he fought him twice, the second time in Coney Island, NY?

And Bobby Brown is a different fighter who he did fight at same venue which is acknowledged and recorded?

Bobby ***** 1 - recorded/chicago
Bobby Brown - recorded, coney Island, ny
Bobby ***** 2 - not recorded, coney island, ny
@Burt Brooks - do I have it right? Sorry if I'm coming across as thick - but I'm terrible with boxing history in general :lol:
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Jay Yes to the above recordered
Ray Robinson / Billy Brown Sept 4, 1950 Coney Island, NY
Ray Robinson / Bobby ***** Nov 8, 1950 Chicago on tv
Ray Robinson /. Bobby ***** #2 I saw at the Coney Island open air Arena a few years after NOT RECORDED, though I certainly saw that fight.
In reply to a question if the bout I saw was an exhibition ? The answer is No. I who saw with my dad robinson in his prime wuld not
pay dough to see an exhibition, so I discount that...The only possibility is that Robinson's opponent didn't show up a few days before and the
once popular Bobby ***** substituted in the fight I saw...BUT looking over Robby's record I see no bout of his in Brooklyn, Ny after his bout
with Billy Brown in 1950...So Jay I have little or no hope of solving this personal mystery as both Robinson and ***** are dead. Only a
living relative of Bobby ***** could possibly solve this dilemma..Thanks...
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Chatty , good question but the bout WE saw was no exhibition..There were prelim fights prior to the main event which was non
eventful...
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Thanks T...But I feel almost positively that I will NEVER solve this question...It is like you are in your house alone...Leave your wallet on the table in the kitchen.
Walk in the LR for a moment, and back to fetch your wallet ,and IT IS GONE...No one entered the house...This can drive a man to drink...
Well bottom's up T...
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Jamie, as I posted above, I didn't HEAR about the Ray Robinson / Bobby ***** fight #2, I SAW the fight
In Coney Island, a few years after the first fight in Chicago in 1950, which you can see on film...No record survives of the bout I saw in
the open air stadium in the famous Coney Island resort a few blocks from the boardwalk, where the famous Nathan's hot dogs
are still being sold,70 years or so later...I know I will never solve this puzzle, cause only if Robinson and Bobby ***** were
ALIVE , could they shed light on this quandry, but of course they are both deceased...Thanks for your interest...
P.S. I recall in my mind ,when I saw this bout, that THEY fought before in Chicago...There are boxing puzzles that can ever be explained
and this is one of them...
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C, the Coney Island Arena where the fight between Robinson and ***** took place in the early 1950s has been long
closed...And the two or three thousand spectators that were at the bout are probably no longer alive...There is a tv program called "history's mystery's "
that could solve this puzzle but I wouldn't know how to go about it as I am a novice on my computer...Thanks for your interest...
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Meast, thanks for your efforts, but you have a better chance to solve the mystery of "who was Jack the ripper ".?
I,and other fine chaps, tried and failed as of now...But see that bout I did, with 2 or 3 thousand other boxing fans at Coney Island
in the early 1950s is a fact, and over 3 years or so since I posted this puzzle, I have not heard from anyone who was there...
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Bobby *****' Grandson said:
I'm Bobby ***** grandson, if you're still looking for the answer, let me know and I'll see if someone in my family can figure it out for me.
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My Lord ,Bobby ****'s grandson...So happy to hear from you sir. I'm an oldtimer who saw your grandpa lose a close decision from the
great Ray Robinson from Chicago ,on my 12"television set on Nov.8,1950...Your grandpa was a darn good welterweight for sure...Several years later in the
early 1950s I believe I and my buddy, now deceased went to a Coney Island boxing Arena in Brooklyn, NY, where I saw your granddad fight
Ray Robinson I recalled then, for the second time . Bobby ***** was introduced by the announcer I remember,and Robinson arrived almost 1 hour late, arriving in
his Fuscia colored Cadillac, with his entourage [which I saw from the last row of the outdoor Arena, peering down]. I recall vividly Robinson won a decision again in a very dull affair. Robinson was not champion at this fight I recall. Years later when I looked at my boxing record books, I was shocked to find
that there is no mention of the Ray Robinson / Bobby ***** in Bklyn, Ny in the 1950s...NONE.But I know I saw them fight ,and remember so well
to this day your tall granddad box Ray Robinson in Coney Island...I am glad that maybe you or your family from Tampa Florida I presume, can shed some light on
my true mystery...I know the bout was not billed as an exhibition, as I recall they had a full prelim card...Maybe it was a last minute match to fill a canceled boxing card, at the last minute...? At any rate I hope you can shed some light sir...Thank you!
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doug.ie said:
all i know is i am honoured....honoured...to have online correspondence with burt like i have the past few years.....to hear some of the first hand accounts and memories of his are gold-dust i think.....and to have the opportunity to converse with him about them....its a wonderful thing.
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Doug.ie, I am also honoured to correspond with you lo these few years...Boxing has been my love since the early 1940s, and I am so
happy to relate some first hand experiences related to those early days...Ciao...
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doug.ie said:
off topic burt...before esb went down yesterday...i think you asked a question about a boxer with a heart problem who got rejected by the army with over 100 fights......was it billy graham ??
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Yes D, it was the wonderful boxer Billy Graham Who Al Frances got correct...I have a special place in my heart for Billy Graham,
too long to detail here...What an immaculate boxer was Graham, combined with a truly iron chin...!
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AlFrancis said:
If you don't mind me asking Burt. How old were you in 1950?
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Al, in 1950 I was in my early 20s.I am probably the only man alive who shook hands with Ray Robinson BEFORE
he turned pro, and also met him in I believe 1966 or so when he retired at the Concord hotel, both waiting in line
for our parked cars...
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doug.ie said:
was that the time you were with your father.
I'm guessing.
I'm remebering you saying..I think..about meeting someone like robinson or pep outside an arena with your father as they were getting a cab or something.
its been a while but I remember liking the post and picturing it.

or maybe it was a john garfield post....I thought it was you though.
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No Dougie, when I first shook hands with Ray Robinson it was in 1939 or early 1940 at a Golden Gloves card in Ridgewood Grove,or B'Way Arena,
and he SRR was helping out the Salem Crescent boxing corner, as Robinson as an amateur sensation fought for Salem Crescent Club. Robinson
as so highly touted as an amateur that a line of boxing fans including my uncle and father waited to shake his hand. the guy before me as he shook hands with
Robinson said " Ray when you become champ, buy me a cigar", I recall Robby retorted "when I do, I'll buy you two"...First rap artist was Sugar Ray...
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AlFrancis said:
It was Doug who it got it Burt.
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I stand corrected Al...Good show Doug...
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doug.ie said:
you seen that first graham v basilio fight burt ?...he cut carmen up a lot in it...wide points win.

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No, D I did not see any of the 3 bouts Billy Graham had with the 5 year younger Carmen Basillio. They were all
out of New York area. In !952 Billy Graham was already 30 years old when he whipped Basillio and was on his downside...
His great trainer ****** Bimstein always insisted that not only was Billy never floored , but he never saw him stagger in
his career of a 125 bouts...There is only one WW in history as good a boxer, and most likely superior...
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