Prime Tyson vs Prime Liston
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Liston by mid rounds KO. Tyson would have to get in close to beat Liston, its hard to know how he'd go about it, even if he was able to put serious pressure on him he'd have to walk through some serious artillery coming back, with Liston's telelphone pole jab busting him up for long periods. i also think that prime Sonny's chin is too good for Mike to crack, and Tyson once he tire's in the mid rounds its lights out.
Tyson could conceivably put enough pressure on Liston to outwork over the long haul, but I cant see it happening. Mike's durable, but not quite that durable.
Tyson could conceivably put enough pressure on Liston to outwork over the long haul, but I cant see it happening. Mike's durable, but not quite that durable.
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I think Tyson wins by KO, in the same manner I always predict he would won. He uses his bob and weave to get inside listons long reach and the works to the body and head, eventually stopping him in a close, brutal fight
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At the speed of a flying bullet, Tinkerbell prolapses Sloth Sonny's glass arse & makes him his girlfriend.:deal:deal:deal
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I really don't see how Tyson wins it.
To me it's pretty ridiculous how all we have ever heard about Douglas-Tyson is that Tyson 'beat himself' which is madness, Buster Douglas' mother just died and what he did was beat the shit out of prime Mike Tyson as a tribute to her, and we're supposed to sit around crediting his win to Tyson being upset over some personal shit instead of him being brutalised by a man who was simply his kryptonite on the night stylistically? Nah thanks. I'm always going to give credit to men who actually win fights, fuck undermining them, imagine if you went and battered Mike Tyson in his prime and nobody gave you credit. :lol:
I'm looking at it from a stylstic perspective, look at how Douglas fought. Douglas was always a skilled fighter who actually did come in massively under-trained for shit loads of his losses, he was like Riddick Bowe in that sense. I read all about how Douglas' dad was the opposite to him, he was a boxer who was not very skilled but he trained his ass off and always wanted to be the best he could or more, whereas Buster was very talented and didn't seem to give a shit about hard work. Look at the way he fought against Tyson, constant jab, not the jab that is aimed at scoring points and getting out of the way, his jab was the thudding weapon, like an actual power punch almost, and it set up heavy bombardments of combos of hooks and uppercuts. The blueprint to beat Tyson was always there from Larry Holmes, stand there and push him backwards, Bruno had some modest success with it in the early part of his first fight with Tyson. It's obviously a massive task and a lot of men will fail miserably in attempting because Tyson is maybe the most skilled combination puncher in heavyweight history, so if you're going to stand in front of him you better know what you're doing. But lets look at how Liston fought, massive jab that pushes you back and behind it comes massive bombardments. Just like Douglas, and even Bruno, but a lot fucking better than both of them. Liston is the ATG version of Douglas.
To me Tyson is the most overrated fighter of all time, and that's not good for me because he is my favourite fighter of my lifetime, hands down, he is like my fucking hero, but I stopped nut hugging him on a rating him level a few years back. He has never won a great fight in which he has been really under the kosh, and the stylistic match up here says he will be. How will just start getting past that jab? I don't understand. If it was a dude like Wlad I would give him a way better chance, simply because Wlad's style is to jab and lay off his man, jab and maintain distance. I think that's a death wish against Tyson, you don't want to be giving Tyson time to look at you, Tyson is probably the best counter puncher going in heavyweight history, and standing off him and looking to outbox him at range is probably going to see you countered, your jab slipped, and then he hits you with four and five combos of insane shots to the body and head before you know it and your height means jack shit because he's closed the distance and is using angles that negate it, I reckon Tyson would smash Wlad all over the ring. But Liston doesn't fight like that, Liston is all over you, leaning on you, grabbing you, moving you around with his physique, and battering you, behind an ATG jab which is pushing you backwards, not just scoring. I reckon Liston is the worst nightmare for Tyson, just based on a styles thing.
Even when Tyson was past his prime, that style, it was always bad for him, Evander, pushing him backwards and not being assed that Tyson was looking to hurt him. Most people don't know about Liston in the heart of his prime, look at what he did to a prime Cleveland Williams, who was a fine fighter, not the past prime version that Ali dazzled.
Liston for me all day.
WAR Tyson and all that shit but it ain't about that.
To me it's pretty ridiculous how all we have ever heard about Douglas-Tyson is that Tyson 'beat himself' which is madness, Buster Douglas' mother just died and what he did was beat the shit out of prime Mike Tyson as a tribute to her, and we're supposed to sit around crediting his win to Tyson being upset over some personal shit instead of him being brutalised by a man who was simply his kryptonite on the night stylistically? Nah thanks. I'm always going to give credit to men who actually win fights, fuck undermining them, imagine if you went and battered Mike Tyson in his prime and nobody gave you credit. :lol:
I'm looking at it from a stylstic perspective, look at how Douglas fought. Douglas was always a skilled fighter who actually did come in massively under-trained for shit loads of his losses, he was like Riddick Bowe in that sense. I read all about how Douglas' dad was the opposite to him, he was a boxer who was not very skilled but he trained his ass off and always wanted to be the best he could or more, whereas Buster was very talented and didn't seem to give a shit about hard work. Look at the way he fought against Tyson, constant jab, not the jab that is aimed at scoring points and getting out of the way, his jab was the thudding weapon, like an actual power punch almost, and it set up heavy bombardments of combos of hooks and uppercuts. The blueprint to beat Tyson was always there from Larry Holmes, stand there and push him backwards, Bruno had some modest success with it in the early part of his first fight with Tyson. It's obviously a massive task and a lot of men will fail miserably in attempting because Tyson is maybe the most skilled combination puncher in heavyweight history, so if you're going to stand in front of him you better know what you're doing. But lets look at how Liston fought, massive jab that pushes you back and behind it comes massive bombardments. Just like Douglas, and even Bruno, but a lot fucking better than both of them. Liston is the ATG version of Douglas.
To me Tyson is the most overrated fighter of all time, and that's not good for me because he is my favourite fighter of my lifetime, hands down, he is like my fucking hero, but I stopped nut hugging him on a rating him level a few years back. He has never won a great fight in which he has been really under the kosh, and the stylistic match up here says he will be. How will just start getting past that jab? I don't understand. If it was a dude like Wlad I would give him a way better chance, simply because Wlad's style is to jab and lay off his man, jab and maintain distance. I think that's a death wish against Tyson, you don't want to be giving Tyson time to look at you, Tyson is probably the best counter puncher going in heavyweight history, and standing off him and looking to outbox him at range is probably going to see you countered, your jab slipped, and then he hits you with four and five combos of insane shots to the body and head before you know it and your height means jack shit because he's closed the distance and is using angles that negate it, I reckon Tyson would smash Wlad all over the ring. But Liston doesn't fight like that, Liston is all over you, leaning on you, grabbing you, moving you around with his physique, and battering you, behind an ATG jab which is pushing you backwards, not just scoring. I reckon Liston is the worst nightmare for Tyson, just based on a styles thing.
Even when Tyson was past his prime, that style, it was always bad for him, Evander, pushing him backwards and not being assed that Tyson was looking to hurt him. Most people don't know about Liston in the heart of his prime, look at what he did to a prime Cleveland Williams, who was a fine fighter, not the past prime version that Ali dazzled.
Liston for me all day.
WAR Tyson and all that shit but it ain't about that.
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Great post, convinced me. Liston late stoppage.
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:nono Duran
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Jump off a bridge
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Nah mate defo not. What I saw on esb was how underrated he was for a start. Everyone tellin me how 'all you need to beat Duran is a bit of speed'
:lol:
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Tyson was the child version of Liston. I agree, stood across the ring from Liston Tyson would be stripped of any mental confidence he usually brought into a contest.
Teeto has given his reasons for a Liston victory. I also believe Liston would win. That jab of Liston's would be put out there all night long.
A stoppage victory for Liston in the last third of the contest.
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I forgive you.
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:lol: I'll stand by my convictions
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It depends on weather Liston can survive the early onslaught, if it go's past 4 rounds then you have to favour Liston, personally I think Tyson catches him and knocks him out.
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Liston wins this one i think. Liston has literally no difficulty with men coming to him and struggles horribly with speed going away from him.
The reason Tyson struggles on occasion with men coming to him is that he is a one-range fighter - a devastating one, but a one range fighter. He is a mid-range fighter of the highest class and a "bulling" fighter - coming from long to middle range - of very high standard.
Here he is up against a fighter who is literally as adept at nearly all the ranges involved in a fight as he is at the others - that is to say, he does not have a preference at which range the fight is fought. This is due to his underated athleticism and his physical/technical tools in addition to "yeah?" attitude.
Liston is also a vastly underated ring general. He has made many adjustments in various fights (maybe most impressively in Williams II where he shifts to the front foot in the very first round having constructed a fight plan based on the first fight which differed) to his opponents detriment.
Add all this up and you have battleground that favours Liston. Tyson will come to Liston and try to hammer him. My guess is that Liston would spear him with the jab. Yes, Tyson has extraordinary head movement but i think it is overated. Tyson did not use arbitrary head movement like, say, Jack Dempsey did. Tyson moved in a pattern. In other words, a fighter with a very accurate jab who also had no fear could time him.
His jab was quite slow. But i've always felt a fast jab was an over-rated commodity generally. From a technically classical stance - which Liston employed - it's a punch that does not take long to get across. I think that an accurate, hard jab, is a better punch than a fast jab which is accurate.
So I see Liston timing Tyson on the way in with the jab and missing with his bigger punches in the first few rounds, but closing the distance with a clatter at the back of that punch. Tyson's best work smothered whilst Liston builds a lead.
A word about punch resistance - I think they have similair resistance to punishment, although Liston was basically impossible to hurt to the body. But I don't think Tyson has that "tide-turning" type of chin. I think that he takes punishment, but the hurt causes his head to drop. We saw it against Hollyfield and Lewis, and to a lesser degree against Douglas. Liston was capable of turning the tide after being hurt, and we saw this agianst Williams, who "hit him so hard all over [my] body" that Sonny became convinced he "didn't have a weak spot", and he went on to KO Williams in 3.
If Tyson slows he will be stopped. If Tyson manages to keep the pace high, he'll lose a wide decision.
Bad match up for Mike.
The reason Tyson struggles on occasion with men coming to him is that he is a one-range fighter - a devastating one, but a one range fighter. He is a mid-range fighter of the highest class and a "bulling" fighter - coming from long to middle range - of very high standard.
Here he is up against a fighter who is literally as adept at nearly all the ranges involved in a fight as he is at the others - that is to say, he does not have a preference at which range the fight is fought. This is due to his underated athleticism and his physical/technical tools in addition to "yeah?" attitude.
Liston is also a vastly underated ring general. He has made many adjustments in various fights (maybe most impressively in Williams II where he shifts to the front foot in the very first round having constructed a fight plan based on the first fight which differed) to his opponents detriment.
Add all this up and you have battleground that favours Liston. Tyson will come to Liston and try to hammer him. My guess is that Liston would spear him with the jab. Yes, Tyson has extraordinary head movement but i think it is overated. Tyson did not use arbitrary head movement like, say, Jack Dempsey did. Tyson moved in a pattern. In other words, a fighter with a very accurate jab who also had no fear could time him.
His jab was quite slow. But i've always felt a fast jab was an over-rated commodity generally. From a technically classical stance - which Liston employed - it's a punch that does not take long to get across. I think that an accurate, hard jab, is a better punch than a fast jab which is accurate.
So I see Liston timing Tyson on the way in with the jab and missing with his bigger punches in the first few rounds, but closing the distance with a clatter at the back of that punch. Tyson's best work smothered whilst Liston builds a lead.
A word about punch resistance - I think they have similair resistance to punishment, although Liston was basically impossible to hurt to the body. But I don't think Tyson has that "tide-turning" type of chin. I think that he takes punishment, but the hurt causes his head to drop. We saw it against Hollyfield and Lewis, and to a lesser degree against Douglas. Liston was capable of turning the tide after being hurt, and we saw this agianst Williams, who "hit him so hard all over [my] body" that Sonny became convinced he "didn't have a weak spot", and he went on to KO Williams in 3.
If Tyson slows he will be stopped. If Tyson manages to keep the pace high, he'll lose a wide decision.
Bad match up for Mike.
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