[w;dkm ckeqfjq c]

Muhammed Ali is generally regarded as the best heavyweight, but I have seen several people claim that Joe Louis is the GOAT HW. What are the arguments in favour of either guy?

I know @Vano_Irons is a believer in Joe Louis being the best HW. Any others?
@Lunny @Bajingo @wallace @Hook! @Flea Man @orriray59 @john garfield @Pabby

 

[Flea Man]

It really is a 'what do you like' pick @Chacal

Either could conceivably be ranked no.1 but I've got Foreman as the greatest win in the divisions history so I take Ali more often that not. I rank Louis as the greatest P4P puncher ever so he's got a case as well (I think twit achievements are neck and neck for different reasons)

 

[GazOC]

Ali for me. I could ramble on but the bottom line is clearly better wins.

 

[McGrain]

It's Ali on the broader resume.

I used to think of it as pretty clear cut - now, not so much. Louis closes the gap for me on the h2h argument, ability shit like that.

But, Ali still beat the better fighters and that is pretty clear cut.

 

[nufc_jay]

Ali transcended boxing more, but I could probably pick a few fighters I believe would beat him, even in his prime. Purely based on styles.

 

[Flea Man]

Ali transcended boxing more, but I could probably pick a few fighters I believe would beat him, even in his prime. Purely based on styles.

And not Louis?

 

[nufc_jay]

And not Louis?

Huh?

 

[w;dkm ckeqfjq c]

Huh?

He's asking if you could pick a few fighters who you think would beat a prime Louis I think.

 

[nufc_jay]

He's asking if you could pick a few fighters who you think would beat a prime Louis I think.

Well that's a little easier, either Klit, Tyson, Holmes, Holyfield, Arreola... I could go on

 

[Vano-irons]

I have Louis.

Ali beat the better opposition no doubt, but I don't think Louis' opposition is all that bad to be honest.

Louis, for my money, achieved more. He is the longest reigning HW champion in history, he is likely the best combination puncher in the divisions history, and I think e catches up with Ali late on.

I know I'm in the minority, and it really could go either way, I just think Louis achieved more in the sport, even if he didn't have a Frazier or Foreman

 

[nufc_jay]

even if he didn't have a Frazier or Foreman

Just as well for him

 

[GazOC]

What do mean by "achieved more" Vano?

 

[bask]

 

[nufc_jay]

:lol:

 

[Vano-irons]

What do mean by "achieved more" Vano?

He held the HW title longer than anyone else and he has more defences than anyone else.

I also think the second Schmeling fight was more important than any fight in history, bar Jeffries-Johnson

 

[GazOC]

That first point still gets us back, kinda(!!!), to the class of opponents of the 2 fighters IMHO. The second reason is a little weak to rank a fighter on if you don't mind me saying so.

 

[Vano-irons]

If I was to ask the question 'Who is the greatest HW CHAMPION of all time' many would say Louis. That has to count for something in my opinion.

Ali definitely has the better wins, no question. But that's not the be all and end all of my criteria.

I have:
Resume
Longevity
Prime losses
Head to head
Overall achievements

Ali has Resume on his side, but losses out on Longevity (mainly due to the years he was away),prime losses (but that's because I don't think Louis was smack on his prime during the first Max fight), head to head (Louis catches up with him late in my opinion), and overall achievements (which I've gone into already)

Don't get me wrong, it's majorly close, and I have no problem whatsoever with people having Ali top.

I think a lot of it comes down to who I prefer watching, and, to me anyway, Louis was the more well rounded fighter

 

[GazOC]

I get the head to head argument but record and prime loses are connected for me. The superior record contains loses because its superior in quality. I think the longeivity is pretty close when you see how many years they held the championship and the span of those years.

Also if Louis is getting a freebie for the first Schmeling fight for not being quite prime then I'm claiming one for Ali for the first Frazier fight after 3 years out.

 

[w;dkm ckeqfjq c]

Great points here. I've not seen enough of Louis to make an assessment on him being the goat of the HW division.

 

[Vano-irons]

I get the head to head argument but record and prime loses are connected for me. The superior record contains loses because its superior in quality. I think the longeivity is pretty close when you see how many years they held the championship and the span of those years.

Also if Louis is getting a freebie for the first Schmeling fight for not being quite prime then I'm claiming one for Ali for the first Frazier fight after 3 years out.

:nono

Ali had two good wins before Fazier, and was a pro for like 7 years before the ban. Louis, on the other hand, hadnt been a pro two years before Schmeling 1.

Like I said, I don't really have a problem with Ali being number 1. He beat the far better competition. But for me, Louis was the better fighter