[JamieC]

Couple of us discussing this with Dillian Whyte who claims all of the above were heavyweight champion on account of holding the WBA belt, just interested to see what people here thought, do any of them have any sort of claim to be a heavyweight champion?

 

[Roe]

They have about as much right to claim it as Audley does with his WBF belt, in my opinion. Obviously they fought at a higher level, but none of them was ever the genuine world champion.

1 world = 1 world champion. Simple.

I thought Toney's win over Ruiz got stripped cuz he failed a drugs test anyway?

 

[w;dkm ckeqfjq c]

No. They were belt holders.

 

[JamieC]

They have about as much right to claim it as Audley does with his WBF belt, in my opinion. Obviously they fought at a higher level, but none of them was ever the genuine world champion.

1 world = 1 world champion. Simple.

I thought Toney's win over Ruiz got stripped cuz he failed a drugs test anyway?

exactly they werent lineal or undisputed champs, there can only be one champion of the world and they werent it for me

and ye it did so he was never actually heavyweight champion WBA or otherwise

 

[GazOC]

As said, belt holders no champion and I'd make sure I drew that distinction when discussing their careers. Same as Holys 3 times champion claim.

 

[Noonaldinho]

As we discussed tge other week what about Vitali?

 

[BoxingAnalyst]

Nope.

 

[JamieC]

As we discussed tge other week what about Vitali?

Vitali's a weird one, but these are cut and dried nos for me, drives me mad when David Haye is described as former heavyweight champion

 

[Batkilt]

To me they weren't. Haye was the WBA champion, but Wladimir is the world champion. Same goes for Ruiz when he and Holyfield fought over it - except then Lewis was the established lineal champion. I'll say the same about Brook if he wins the IBF title. He won't be world champion as Mayweather is. That's not to beliqttle the accomplishment or the work put in to get there, but holding an alphabelt doesn't make you a world champion in my book.

 

[Noonaldinho]

Vitali's a weird one, but these are cut and dried nos for me, drives me mad when David Haye is described as former heavyweight champion

Froch?

 

[scribbs]

Yeah, They won the WBA 'World' Championship apart from Toney who cheated & it was turned into a NC, but seriously, NO THEY WERE NOT!

 

[scribbs]

Froch?

No, Froch has never been a proper champ, Just saying

 

[Roe]

Yeah, I've also no problem in them saying they were "WBA champion" or "WBC champion" etc, but it's when they claim to be "the champion of the world". No. Like Flea said on twitter, look up the definition of "champion":

"Champion (noun): A person who has defeated or surpassed all rivals in a competition, esp. in sports."

 

[JamieC]

Froch?

As much as it pains me to say it about my favourite boxer of all time, despite having many wins deserving of being world champion the stars never aligned for him. He beat someone that became light heavyweight champion shortly afterwards. I suppose after Calzaghe when the division was fractured with no-one having a definitive claim his wins over Pascal, Taylor and Dirrell possibly gave him a shout at being no 1 in the division thus starting a new lineage possibly off the top of my head? Trying to remember the state of the division at the time tbh

 

[Roe]

I suppose after Calzaghe when the division was fractured with no-one having a definitive claim his wins over Pascal, Taylor and Dirrell possibly gave him a shout at being no 1 in the division thus starting a new lineage possibly off the top of my head? Trying to remember the state of the division at the time tbh

I don't think there was a proper champion in the division once Calzaghe moved up. Froch had a good run, but shouldn't be given that recognition for beating then unknown Pascal and Dirrell and a past it Taylor, who'd been beaten twice by Pavlik a weight below. The super six tournament was to establish the next genuine champion and Andre Ward won it.

I got laughed at for saying it before but in a way I actually consider Froch/Kessler 2 to be a kind of interim version of the proper world title. Ward's inactive and could be out for a while, and these are clearly the next best. If Froch wins, it'll be his best claim to be genuine world champion anyway. At least IMO.

 

[Batkilt]

As much as it pains me to say it about my favourite boxer of all time, despite having many wins deserving of being world champion the stars never aligned for him. He beat someone that became light heavyweight champion shortly afterwards. I suppose after Calzaghe when the division was fractured with no-one having a definitive claim his wins over Pascal, Taylor and Dirrell possibly gave him a shout at being no 1 in the division thus starting a new lineage possibly off the top of my head? Trying to remember the state of the division at the time tbh

I'd say that's extremely generous to be honest. Taylor hadn't done owt at 168 and Dirrell didn't have any stand out wins either. That doesn't mean they aren't good wins - just not enough to establish a lineage in my eyes. I don't that was achieved until Ward beat Froch. Other than Bute they'd beaten the rest of the S6 between them and it was a clear #1 vs. #2 fight. Unless you lived in Quebec, that is

 

[Roe]

Other than Bute they'd beaten the rest of the S6 between them and it was a clear #1 vs. #2 fight. Unless you lived in Quebec, that is

Or worked for Ring Magazine, Boxing Monthly or BoxRec..

All of which amazingly had Bute at number 1 even though he'd fought no-one at the top of the division.

 

[JamieC]

I don't think there was a proper champion in the division once Calzaghe moved up. Froch had a good run, but shouldn't be given that recognition for beating then unknown Pascal and Dirrell and a past it Taylor, who'd been beaten twice by Pavlik a weight below. The super six tournament was to establish the next genuine champion and Andre Ward won it.

I got laughed at for saying it before but in a way I actually consider Froch/Kessler 2 to be a kind of interim version of the proper world title. Ward's inactive and could be out for a while, and these are clearly the next best. If Froch wins, it'll be his best claim to be genuine world champion anyway. At least IMO.

I'd say that's extremely generous to be honest. Taylor hadn't done owt at 168 and Dirrell didn't have any stand out wins either. That doesn't mean they aren't good wins - just not enough to establish a lineage in my eyes. I don't that was achieved until Ward beat Froch. Other than Bute they'd beaten the rest of the S6 between them and it was a clear #1 vs. #2 fight. Unless you lived in Quebec, that is

i agree lads. I think he probably had the best claim out of all the titlists (his win over Taylor was against the odds iirc?) but i dont think it's enough to establish a new lineage, Ward-Froch was the start of the next one for me. But I see what you mean @Roe when you say this is almost a true interim title fight coming up, who knows if/when Ward will fight at 168 again, I can see him moving up tbh as he's going to Bute-Pascal and has nothing left to do at Super-Middle

 

[scribbs]

The super six tournament was to establish the next genuine champion and Andre Ward won it.

I got laughed at for saying it before but in a way I actually consider Froch/Kessler 2 to be a kind of interim version of the proper world title. Ward's inactive and could be out for a while, and these are clearly the next best. If Froch wins, it'll be his best claim to be genuine world champion anyway. At least IMO.

Ward is THE MAN! I see your point about it being an interim title fight & it's clear these 2 fighters are the top contenders for the title. If it was a UFC match it would probably be an interim title match, it's not, it's boxing & we have numerous titles which is really a shame. Anyway not gonna go on a rant about my pet boxing peev.

 

[Chatty]

Hayes claim is less as he was gifted the title that should have already been Wlads after he defeated Chagaev who had been stripped for having hep.

Toney has never officially won a recognized title at heavy.

Ruiz was a belt holder.