World Top 30 P4P January 2013

2449 Views 38 Replies 13 Participants Last post by dkos, Jan 5, 2013

King Horse

Discussion Starter · Jan 1, 2013

1. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
2. Juan Manuel Marquez
3. Andre Ward
4. Nonito Donaire
5. Sergio Martinez
6. Wladimir Klitschko
7. Manny Pacquiao
8. Carl Froch
9. Abner Mares
10. Brian Viloria

11. Timothy Bradley
12. Vitali Klitschko
13. Yuriorkis Gamboa
14. Anselmo Moreno
15. Chad Dawson
16. Orlando Salido
17. Austin Trout
18. Bernard Hopkins
19. Danny Garcia
20. Lucas Matthysse

21. Mikkel Kessler
22. Robert Guerrero
23. Daniel Ponce De Leon
24. Kazuto Ioka
25. Miguel Cotto
26. Daniel Geale
27. Saul Alvarez
28. Tomasz Adamek
29. Yoan Pablo Hernandez
30. Toshiyuki Igarashi

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21 - 39 of 39 Posts

Vano-irons

· #21 · Jan 2, 2013

Donaire definitely above Ward

Mares definitely above Froch

JamieC

· #22 · Jan 2, 2013

Mares is a cheating shit, Froch is the epitomy of everything good about the sport, which is criteria enough for me to have Froch higher

Indigo Pab

· #23 · Jan 2, 2013

As a massive Agbeko fan I had infinite hate for Mares for quite a while, but the draw/arguable win vs Perez, and wins over Darchinyan, Agbeko(second fight) and Moreno is pretty impressive. Added to that anyone battering Eric Morel can win me over.

Vano-irons

· #24 · Jan 2, 2013

JamieC said:
Mares is a cheating shit, Froch is the epitomy of everything good about the sport, which is criteria enough for me to have Froch higher

I love Froch. But I think Mares has shown his quality. The first Agbeko fight was sad to watch, but he has proven he is a good fighter. Plus I didn't really rate Bute

JamieC

· #25 · Jan 2, 2013

Vano-irons said:
I love Froch. But I think Mares has shown his quality. The first Agbeko fight was sad to watch, but he has proven he is a good fighter. Plus I didn't really rate Bute

im only messing Mares is good, and i backed Froch to beat Bute but i still rated Bute as a top operator, but theres a gap between top operators and Carl Froch, I think its too early to put Mares definitely above him (i wouldnt shout and scream if he was though) but hes only one or two big wins away

Vano-irons

· #26 · Jan 2, 2013

JamieC said:
im only messing Mares is good, and i backed Froch to beat Bute but i still rated Bute as a top operator, but theres a gap between top operators and Carl Froch, I think its too early to put Mares definitely above him (i wouldnt shout and scream if he was though) but hes only one or two big wins away

You're 100% right there isn't much in it. I think Moreno is better than Bute which steals it for me. Both superb obviously

Lilo

· #27 · Jan 3, 2013

Can't really rate Wlad that highly in P4P for me. If the argument is 'if everyone weighed the same' then I think he gets KO'd off so many: Sergio, Mayweather, Ward, Donaire, Haye etc. In a P4P sense he wouldn't have all the physical advantages he has 95% of the time, he'd fight differently and his chin would be cracked more often, as Wach and Sam Peter showed.

Not that he'll give a fuck mind :lol:

Lunny

· #28 · Jan 3, 2013

Lilo said:
Can't really rate Wlad that highly in P4P for me. If the argument is 'if everyone weighed the same' then I think he gets KO'd off so many: Sergio, Mayweather, Ward, Donaire, Haye etc. In a P4P sense he wouldn't have all the physical advantages he has 95% of the time, he'd fight differently and his chin would be cracked more often, as Wach and Sam Peter showed.

Not that he'll give a fuck mind :lol:

That's not really how I see P4P, I just see it as who's the best at what they do, who's the most effective, who's got the best recent record etc. and for me Wlad is well worth a look in. I don't see it as who would win if we make them all 160lbs 5'10'' because that's just a bit mad to me.

JamieC

· #29 · Jan 3, 2013

Lunny said:
That's not really how I see P4P, I just see it as who's the best at what they do, who's the most effective, who's got the best recent record etc. and for me Wlad is well worth a look in. I don't see it as who would win if we make them all 160lbs 5'10'' because that's just a bit mad to me.

ye if everyone was made to have the same physical attributes most styles would change theoretically

Chatty

· #30 · Jan 3, 2013

Vano-irons said:
Oh, and Adamek was spanked in his last fight too. He hasn't looked good for years

He has lost 3 of his last 5 imo

Vano-irons

· #31 · Jan 3, 2013 (Edited)

chatty said:
He has lost 3 of his last 5 imo

Yup. Cunningham, Chambers and a one armed Arreola (I think he injured his arm anyway)

Actually, looking it up, Arreola was a while ago. Throw Vitali into the mix

Chatty

· #32 · Jan 3, 2013

I score P4P on who has been the most dominant over the last 3-4 years, cutting out anything they achieved before that and focusing on who they have beaten, what their performances were like, risks taken etc.

So on that I can only put Donaire, Ward or marquez at the top of the pile. Mayweather is a great boxer but in the pound for pound capacity he gets a lot of praise for stuff he did back in the early to mid 00s. I mean since he came back he has wins over a bloated Marquez after coming in heavy, a shot Mosley, a brain dead Ortiz and a shot Cotto so how do you make the argument that his form is better than than beating Nishioka, Montiel, Marquez, Arce or Dawson, Froch, Kessler or Pacquaio, Diaz, Katsidis etc.

To be fair, Marquez' isn't great over the last few years but the Pacquaio wins elevate somewhat.

Wlad should be pretty high as he has dominated his division and beaten literally everyone without losing more than a handfull of rounds. Sure, he's boring and fights safe and past from has shown a shaky chin etc but he's found a way to use his advantages to his best and no one in the division can beat him. I much as I hate to see it, he is defo one of the most dominating boxers in this era and deserves his props for it.

Pacquaio has been harshly done by on a lot of P4P lists, not on this one but some don't even have him in the top 15 and the only person he has lost to in the last 5 years is fellow P4P contender Marquez, take into account the Bradley robbery and the fact he has fought some real top guys then he should be in the top ten without a doubt.

Gamboa should be lower down imo, he has only had one fight in the last year and a half and he struggled badly against a b-level fighter. he had some good form before that but guys like Dawson, Guerrero, Matthysse have better resumes than him.

Glad to see Broner hasn't made the top half of the list, you could argue for him being in the 15-30 bracket but he hasn't done nothing to warrant any higher and some have him in the top five

atsch.

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dkos

· #33 · Jan 3, 2013

Lunny said:
That's not really how I see P4P, I just see it as who's the best at what they do, who's the most effective, who's got the best recent record etc. and for me Wlad is well worth a look in. I don't see it as who would win if we make them all 160lbs 5'10'' because that's just a bit mad to me.

I agree with that, but you have to take into account the advantages Wlad usually has over his opponents when ranking him P4P.

Most would agree that David Haye and Eddie Chambers have been Wlad's best opponents in recent times. Yet the physical advantages he enjoyed over those two would, in a P4P sense at least, diminish those wins for him. As examples, those contests would be the equivalent of Floyd Mayweather facing Andre Ward, Brian Viloria taking on Orlando Salido or Ricky Burns going against Austin Trout. I know that's not the case for Wlad all the time, but he generally does have some form of physical advantage over his opponent.

King Horse

Discussion Starter · #34 · Jan 4, 2013

Lilo said:
I just can't see how anyone could have Ward higher than Donaire.

If Ward had beaten Dawson at 175 (as he should've done) then maybe but Donaire has just as many quality wins but more in number and more titles (regardless of what you think of them) in several weight classes.

Don't get me wrong Ward is exceptional but higher than Donaire? Not for me. Destroying Nishioka in his weight class is a far better weight than destroying a shell of Dawson. The Arce win is better than Bika/Green and just as good as Abraham IMO.

It is a close contest between the top 4. I think any of them would be a reasonable P4P No. 1 on someone's list.

I rate Ward's recent opposition as being slightly better, as Froch and Dawson were arguably top 10 P4P fighters when he fought them.

King Horse

Discussion Starter · #35 · Jan 5, 2013

Sportofkings said:
Takashi Uchiyama should be in there, he certainly is better than some of those from 20-30 on your list, and is the top 130 pounder around.

He just missed out. He could do with another big win.

King Horse

Discussion Starter · #36 · Jan 5, 2013

Vano-irons said:
You're holding it against him because he hasn't unified? Even tho he is a two weight world champion?

Yes, I do hold it against him. Minimumweight and Light Flyweight are arguably the two most insignificant weight divisions in boxing, he really should be unifying the titles.

Vano-irons said:
Yet you have Gamboa just outside of the top 10, despite his inactivity? I just don't understand the logic of not having one of the hardest hitting p4p fighters, who is a two weight world champion, undefeated and has blasted through pretty much everyone in the division, but you'd have someone like Hopkins who has had 1 meaningful win in 3 years, and Adamak who was soundly dominated by Cunningham, Vitali and was probably beaten by a one armed Arreola and Eddie Chambers

Hopkins has many major wins in his career. Gonzalez has a good win against Niida over 4 years ago, with no single big win since, only a lot of decent opponents.

Hopefully the fight against Ioka happens, so he can make it clear whether he deserves to be considered a top P4P fighter or not.

King Horse

Discussion Starter · #37 · Jan 5, 2013

dkos said:
There is no way that the current top two Japanese boxers are Ioka and Igarashi. Uchiyama, Sato, Yamanaka and Hasegawa all deserve to be ranked higher than them, IMO.

Mthalane deserves a place in the top 30 for me.

Hasegawa should be higher than Ioka? His form is too bad to be above Ioka.

Uchiyama is the closest to a place in the top 30 out of that lot in my opinion.

Vano-irons

· #38 · Jan 5, 2013

King Horse said:
Yes, I do hold it against him. Minimumweight and Light Flyweight are arguably the two most insignificant weight divisions in boxing, he really should be unifying the titles.

Hopkins has many major wins in his career. Gonzalez has a good win against Niida over 4 years ago, with no single big win since, only a lot of decent opponents.

Hopefully the fight against Ioka happens, so he can make it clear whether he deserves to be considered a top P4P fighter or not.

Wait, so you don't hold those weight classes in high regard, but you have Ioka in there? Despite Gonzalez winning the same number of titles and having more title defences. Don't get it.

Hopkins does have an outstanding résumé, but isn't p4p a list on the best boxers right now?

dkos

· #39 · Jan 5, 2013

King Horse said:
Hasegawa should be higher than Ioka? His form is too bad to be above Ioka.

Uchiyama is the closest to a place in the top 30 out of that lot in my opinion.

Ioka was fighting in a division with the least depth of talent available, so I can't really rate him that high based on that.

You also have to take into account Hasegawa's past achievements; before the Montiel fight he was considered by many to be on the fringes of the P4P top 10. Plus, his last win over Reyes was a solid B-level type victory - on a par with the likes of Juan Hernandez, which is one of Ioka's better wins.

So, how does Igarashi rate above Uchiyama?

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