I always thought that it was somewhat ironic that Muhammad Ali is touted as a "puncher" by many residents of this forum, yet they deride Joe Frazier's chin at the same time....the same chin that absorbed everything that Ali could land on him without going down in 41 combined rounds.
Let's reiterate that. Ali was a dangerous puncher at the time of their trilogy, unloaded more hard shots on Joe than any other opponent, yet Frazier holds the record of having gone the most rounds with him, a record which Joe expressed wanting to extend during the post fight conference after Manila.
He went more rounds with Bonavena than anybody else. Jerry Quarry barely hit Ali in being dominated. Smoke dominated the Belter twice. Nobody was hit by Jerry as much in a bout where where JQ was dominated as Joe did in 1969, a situation where Joe emerged unmarked and unbuckled. Mathis had decked Wepner with an early head shot, something Foreman, Liston, Bugner and Duane Bobick did not do to Chuck's chin, and Buster was riding a ten knockout win streak when Frazier derailed him.
Joe was shot for Foreman II, progressively arthritic, nearly 25 pounds above his peak weight, wearing a contact lens which got knocked out, yet lasted longer on his feet than any defeated opponent of George's in his 17 wins between Peralta II and Jimmy Young. That gets overlooked. Lyle got dropped twice in the fourth, while Pires, although never knocked off his feet, did not answer the bell for round five. Old, arthritic, overweight and blind Joe Frazier is the ONLY one of Foreman's defeated opponents between Peralta II and Young to answer the bell for round five w/out having yet been dropped in the match.
Nudging 38 years of age and 230 pounds after a five and a half year layoff, he drew with Jumbo Cummings in a competitive ten round bout, two and a half years before Cummings knocked Frank Bruno silly with a single punch.
From his 1967-1971 prime, he never had the opportunity to beat a really top shelf puncher, but there were guys who had very respectable power that he successfully negotiated. Standing ground or trying to muscle him backwards, as Chuvalo, Stander, Bonavena, JQ and Cummings did, failed to prove a recipe for beating him, in and of itself. The punching skills of a Mathis, Machen, Jones, Ali and JQ were not sufficient to floor him.
Manuel Ramos actually fought him pretty well for the six minutes it lasted. Both guys pitched over 80 punches in the opening round, according to my first attempt of a stat count off the footage. During the second round, Ramos came close to unloading 50 punches, while Smoke actually ramped up his total to around 100 shots, despite the interruption of the first knockdown and seven count on Pulgarcito 25 seconds in, with Joe's 20th punch of that stanza. (Even with round two over, Ramos called it off. An intervening rest period wasn't going to make a difference. He couldn't match power or pace with Frazier, his hooks to Smoke's body had done nothing to slow the smaller guy down, he tried a good follow-up attack after that early uppercut bomb, and Joe was actually picking up an insane tempo for heavyweights.)
Watching how energetic Frazier was in this pre-peak performance, and how quickly he recovered from that right uppercut 35 seconds after the opening bell, I'd be reserved about presuming you could call it in for peak Foreman against the 1969 version of Smoke (whose own right uppercut was really ripping on Ramos). The Mexican obviously didn't have George's physical strength, punching power or punch resistance, but he was faster, a more efficient puncher, and more proactive on defense.
Smoke's improvement as a result of going the championship distance in Bonavena II is evident in JQ I. We don't see the frenetic 80-100 punch pace per round he overwhelmed Ramos with, nor is he missing wildly anymore. (Even with Manuel standing from 6'3" to 6'4" in height, some of Joe's hooks and crosses went sailing over his head.) He's much more controlled with Jerry, unloading with anywhere from 50 to 74 punches a round, averaging out in the mid to upper 60s for a steady work rate, and JQ was indeed correct in his next day post-fight interview with Cosell, that Frazier was clever with his subtle use of the head, shoulders, forearms and elbows in efficiently conserving a measure of energy against the possibility of another long bout. (Jerry also made it clear that he was no choir boy when it came to extracurricular non-punching tactics, and understood it as part of the trade.)
After Ramos, Joe said, "That's the first time I've ever been hit that hard. I was really shook, but when you're IN CONDITION, you can shake it off." He was no longer remotely at that level of resilience for either bout with Foreman. Earlier, he was just 21 years old for Bonavena I, probably not yet physically mature for his first major test 21 against somebody about to turn 24, who had already beaten Chuvalo over ten, Peralta over 12, and received a boxing lesson from Folley over ten for the cameras. We saw how dramatically the physical maturation process advanced Ali's punch resistance after 1963. Frazier was 25 for JQ I, and 26 for Ellis I, fully experienced, physically matured, optimally conditioned, and more accurate and efficient than he was for Ramos, against that better opposition. Jimmy Cannon was probably correct after Frazier-Bonavena I in stating that Joe didn't really have the chin to support his style, but again, it was a premature judgment to pass on a 21 year old kid who got much better over the next half decade.
Reviewing Frazier-Ramos before Frazier-JQ II and Frazier-Ellis I, I feel even more strongly that it's unfair to stereotype Smoke as an incorrigibly slow starter in the Duane Bobick-Michael Spinks-Carlos Palomino mold. After Bonavena II, he started championship distance bouts at a more controlled and seasoned pace. He didn't come in cold, and he wasn't sleep walking after a dressing room nap. With Ziggy, both guys fired off half a dozen punches in the first 13 seconds, concluding when Frazier dumped him with a double hook. After Zyglewicz got up, both guys fired off around 26-30 shots before the knockout, Joe ducking around nine attempts at return fire. Dave was obviously a badly outmatched victim, but Frazier remained controlled and mindful of defense between knockdowns, not wild in his tune-up for JQ I.
atschOh my,...the debauchery of it all!!! What is the canine equivalent of catnip anyway? Jack Daniels??? Fire hydrant scented Gaines Burgers???
