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Does Jack Dempsey Stop Joe Frazier?

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#21 ·
heavy_hands said:
not even a chance... frazier was better in every department except maybe feet speed, he was bigger,more compact, heavier, stronger, more skilled, better body puncher, his bobbing and weaving was better, he had a better left hook than dempsey, more heart,he proved his chin against much greater fighters than dempsey did, not even foreman could stop frazier for the 10 count, no fighter in the history under 200 pounds would beat smokin joe frazier and yes marciano included. frazier would eat dempsey alive.
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Dempsey was a two fisted puncher, Frazier was not.Dempsey devours Frazier.
 
#22 ·
Klompton said:
No I dont think Dempsey was crude at all. I think he's susceptible to certain styles but thats not even the case here. I just rate frazier very highly and think that within a certain size range hes darn near unbeatable in his prime. I think that Dempsey would have a surprisingly hard time landing consistently on Frazier and that after five rounds Dempsey would fade and Frazier run him ragged.
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I'd be about here with it. I don't think Dempsey was crude either but I feel Frazier is bigger and better. What a weird way to do a H2H thread for these two, Turbo. I think I'm going to take you out of my will, mate. :bart
 
Discussion starter · #23 ·
Boxed Ears said:
I'd be about here with it. I don't think Dempsey was crude either but I feel Frazier is bigger and better. What a weird way to do a H2H thread for these two, Turbo. I think I'm going to take you out of my will, mate. :bart
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:lol: This needs to be discussed :deal
 
#26 ·
If you watch Dempsey against Williard, he's fleet of foot in the mold of Pacquaio. I don't think Frazier has the right style to beat Dempsey. Dempsey had trouble with boxers like Tunney and Carpentier.

Frazier will walk right into Dempsey's bombs. Dempsey would use his lateral movement and walk Frazier into straight right hands, turn him, fire off combinations, and eventually finish him with the hooks.

Dempsey was smaller and perhaps Frazier would wear him down, but like Pacquaio, Dempsey can punch.
 
#27 · (Edited)
Cormac said:
Let me try harder, Dempsey had better offence, was more elusive, and possessed better power, tougher chin , faster hands , better lateral movement and was a more versatile puncher. imo
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this one is even worse... dempsey never did show that he had more power than frazier who faced much better guys than dempsey did, dempsey got dropped by the light puncher natural lhw tunney, frazier took every shot from the hardest puncher lhw ever bob foster like nothing, george foreman could not put frazier down by the 10 count, frazier had a better chin here, more proved for sure,frazier was much better body puncher, he had a better left hook than dempsey(the best punch from dempsey was the left hook too), frazier was bigger,stronger,heavier. dempsey looked more elusive against a big heavy bag like willard, not master fighters like muhammad ali, monsters like george foreman (both top 10 hws)
 
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#28 · (Edited)
heavy_hands said:
this one is even worse... dempsey never did show that he had more power than frazier who faced much better guys than dempsey did, dempsey got dropped by the light puncher natural lhw tunney, frazier took every shot from the hardest puncher lhw ever bob foster like nothing, george foreman could not put frazier down by the 10 count, frazier had a better chin here, more proved for sure,frazier was much better body puncher, he had a better left hook than dempsey(the best punch from dempsey was the left hook too), frazier was bigger,stronger,heavier. dempsey looked more elusive against a big heavy bag like willard, not master fighters like muhammad ali, monsters like george foreman (both top 10 hws)
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Dempsey knocked men unconscious then he then lifted up and carried them to their corner, who did Frazier ko?

Tunney had 48kos in 65wins he was not a light puncher, he was also not a lhvy when he fought Dempsey and had not been one for some time he scaled just 1/2 a pound less than Dempsey when he took the title from him. Foster never beat a good heavyweight ,and could never put on meaningful weight, he was 21lbs lighter than Frazier when they fought, Frazier had a better chin ? The best puncher he fought used him as a yo yo.
Sorry your arguments are irrational, no point continuing this.
 
#29 ·
I'd favor Frazier in this match up. He had better technique and a better left hook. Frazier was also a very strong, durable guy. Dempsey would be out there throwing wider punches than Frazier and he would get into exchanges that Frazier would come out on top in. Between Frazier's left that would constantly be getting ripped into Dempsey's ribs, stomach, and head and the uppercuts that Dempsey would be getting hit with, Dempsey would be quite damaged by the mid rounds.

Prime Frazier was a machine that Dempsey wouldn't be able to handle. Dempsey flatout didn't have what it took to beat Frazier.
 
#30 ·
I think Dempsey can beat Frazier to the punch at range and have too much experience for him within the clinches inside. Dempsey was a better fighter and seasoned at the art of old school mauling. Yes Frazier was lethal inside with both hands free but not within a tangle. shovel upercuts, arm pull turns and holding and hitting are a lost art. Dempsey would drop giants within a clinch. Sure Frazier can take Dempsey apart if he ever overwhelms Jack but Joe is taking shots shots outside and inside trying to do this.

In a ten fight serries I can see both winning by KO but i just see Dempsey doing it more times to Joe than Frazier does it to Jack.

The laziest technical breakdown is "they are both hookers, the biggest hooker wins" which is simplistic garbage. Nobody would ever need a trainer or sparring if that were true. Just get a dietician so that the heaviest hooker can absorb more and hit harder. For fucks sake! Is that all there is to it? Heres something simple to think about You cant put pounds on a chin and the one who lands more punches wins.
 
#31 · (Edited)
Cormac said:
Dempsey knocked men unconscious then he then lifted up and carried them to their corner, who did Frazier ko?

Tunney had 48kos in 65wins he was not a light puncher, he was also not a lhvy when he fought Dempsey and had not been one for some time he scaled just 1/2 a pound less than Dempsey when he took the title from him. Foster never beat a good heavyweight ,and could never put on meaningful weight, he was 21lbs lighter than Frazier when they fought, Frazier had a better chin ? The best puncher he fought used him as a yo yo.
Sorry your arguments are irrational, no point continuing this.
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tunney was a light puncher compared with bob foster, tunney dropped dempsey and foster could not even hurt frazier, frazier was 21 pounds heavier than foster just like he would have been 20 pounds heavier than dempsey as well., foster weighed 185 pounds when he faced frazier and prime dempsey weighed 188 firpo? firpo did put the ass of dempsey out of the ring and he was a bum, the only thing that firpo proved is that dempsey was beatable and overrated like hell,
george foreman would have raped dempsey like his daddy, so it is irrelevant here. dempsey was effective under the old rules when he did not have to go to the corner after he dropped his rival and he could hit him once and again... the point is the frazier faced much better rivals than dempsey did ,frazier had ali drunk on the ring in 1971, ali had one of the best chins of all time and frazier did beat him and dropped ali with a single shot and probably under the old rules he would have stopped ali, frazier stopped jimmy ellis, busther mathis, bob foster, eddie machen, george chuvalo, he did beat jerry quarry twice, joe bugner, he did beat oscar bonavena , who did beat dempsey? jess willard? firpo? the lhw carpentier? sharkey? the lhw gibbons? he never faced harry wills he wanted no part of a past prime sam langford, a guy like willie wehan did beat him 2 times? bums like jack downey did beat him, he lost by ko against jim flynn...tunney schooled him twice. frazier just lost against 2 of the very best hws ever, foreman and ali... and he did beat ali once... frazier had by far more credentials here, he would kick the ass of the caveman.

(my points are by far more solid than yours)
 
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#34 · (Edited)
heavy_hands said:
tunney was a light puncher compared with bob foster, tunney dropped dempsey and foster could not even hurt frazier, frazier was 21 pounds heavier than foster just like he would have been 20 pounds heavier than dempsey as well., foster weighed 185 pounds when he faced frazier and prime dempsey weighed 188 firpo? firpo did put the ass of dempsey out of the ring and he was a bum, the only thing that firpo proved is that dempsey was beatable and overrated like hell,
george foreman would have raped dempsey like his daddy, so it is irrelevant here. dempsey was effective under the old rules when he did not have to go to the corner after he dropped his rival and he could hit him once and again... the point is the frazier faced much better rivals than dempsey did ,frazier had ali drunk on the ring in 1971, ali had one of the best chins of all time and frazier did beat him and dropped ali with a single shot and probably under the old rules he would have stopped ali, frazier stopped jimmy ellis, busther mathis, bob foster, eddie machen, george chuvalo, he did beat jerry quarry twice, joe bugner, he did beat oscar bonavena , who did beat dempsey? jess willard? firpo? the lhw carpentier? sharkey? the lhw gibbons? he never faced harry wills he wanted no part of a past prime sam langford, a guy like willie wehan did beat him 2 times? bums like jack downey did beat him, he lost by ko against jim flynn...tunney schooled him twice. frazier just lost against 2 of the very best hws ever, foreman and ali... and he did beat ali once... frazier had by far more credentials here, he would kick the ass of the caveman.

(my points are by far more solid than yours)
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Which heavyweight of any ability did Foster drop?

You need to read up on Dempsey's formative years and compare his being thrown to the wolves at the start of his career ,pressured to take fight against Langford,Smith and Moran when he was a scrawny lhvy, [fights he sensibly refused,]and the fact that he was a teenaged middleweight

when Downey beat him.

Langford was the Coloured heavyweight Champion in 1916 when Dempsey's then manager the ruthless John The Barber Reisler tried to

talk Dempsey into fighting him, that year Langford kod Wills, Clark,Jeannette ,and beat Mcvey twice, he
was hardly past it.

The bona -fides of Dempsey's "ko " by Fynn are still debated today, his ko of Flynn in the rematch is not.

Meehan a 4 round specialist , beat Dempsey twice over that distance, 6 months later he did the same to Langford.
In comparing power you should bear in mind Dempsey knocked men OUT.

Quarry,Chuvalo, Bonavena ,Mathis,Machen ,Bugner ,Ali, were all on their feet at the end,and Ellis was retired on his stool.Frazier pounded on an old Machen for the best part of 10 rds before the referee halted matters in the last round.
Frazier was a grinder.
Dempsey sparked you.

Compare Dempseys early years when he was sleeping on park benches and subsisting on bar handouts ,with the cosseted start of Frazier, nursed along by Cloverlay, steered clear of the WBA elminating tournament by Durham, and after Bonavena dropped him twice, kept him away from punchers until that fateful day in Kingston.
Delve into Dempsey's origins as a fighter ,and gain some perspective about him.

Until then there isn't much point us continuing this.
 
#36 ·
Cormac said:
Which heavyweight of any ability did Foster drop?

You need to read up on Dempsey's formative years and compare his being thrown to the wolves at the start of his career ,pressured to take fight against Langford,Smith and Moran when he was a scrawny lhvy, [fights he sensibly refused,]and the fact that he was a teenaged middleweight

when Downey beat him.

Langford was the Coloured heavyweight Champion in 1916 when Dempsey's then manager the ruthless John The Barber Reisler tried to

talk Dempsey into fighting him, that year Langford kod Wills, Clark,Jeannette ,and beat Mcvey twice, he
was hardly past it.

The bona -fides of Dempsey's "ko " by Fynn are still debated today, his ko of Flynn in the rematch is not.

Meehan a 4 round specialist , beat Dempsey twice over that distance, 6 months later he did the same to Langford.
In comparing power you should bear in mind Dempsey knocked men OUT.

Quarry,Chuvalo, Bonavena ,Mathis,Machen ,Bugner ,Ali, were all on their feet at the end,and Ellis was retired on his stool.Frazier pounded on an old Machen for the best part of 10 rds before the referee halted matters in the last round.
Frazier was a grinder.
Dempsey sparked you.

Compare Dempseys early years when he was sleeping on park benches and subsisting on bar handouts ,with the cosseted start of Frazier, nursed along by Cloverlay, steered clear of the WBA elminating tournament by Durham, and after Bonavena dropped him twice, kept him away from punchers until that fateful day in Kingston.
Delve into Dempsey's origins as a fighter ,and gain some perspective about him.

Until then there isn't much point us continuing this.
Click to expand...
It should be noted that in Dempsey's era he was allowed to stand over oponents who had just been dropped and wind up and hit them with his biggest punches as they litterally just got up. Give Frazier that same chance and he'd have a lot more KOs where the people were counted out, too.

Look at Dempsey's fight with Willard. He stood over Willard and hit him with huge shots as Willard was getting up and after 4 rounds of it Willard was finally stopped on his stool. I can only imagine how hurt Willard would have been if guys like Marciano, Foreman, Tyson, Cooney, Shavers, or Tua were allowed to do that to him...or even Frazier for that matter.

Dempsey is overrated head to head. Watch Frazier's fights with Chuvalo, Quarry, Mathis, Ellis, and Zyglewicz. Then watch Dempsey's fights vs Willard, Firpo, Carpentier, and Sharkey. It's pretty apparent to me that Frazier had the better tools on the inside, the better overall punching abilities, and the overall skill set/attributes needed to defeat Dempsey.
 
#37 · (Edited)
Bil1234 said:
It should be noted that in Dempsey's era he was allowed to stand over oponents who had just been dropped and wind up and hit them with his biggest punches as they litterally just got up. Give Frazier that same chance and he'd have a lot more KOs where the people were counted out, too.

Look at Dempsey's fight with Willard. He stood over Willard and hit him with huge shots as Willard was getting up and after 4 rounds of it Willard was finally stopped on his stool. I can only imagine how hurt Willard would have been if guys like Marciano, Foreman, Tyson, Cooney, Shavers, or Tua were allowed to do that to him...or even Frazier for that matter.

Dempsey is overrated head to head. Watch Frazier's fights with Chuvalo, Quarry, Mathis, Ellis, and Zyglewicz. Then watch Dempsey's fights vs Willard, Firpo, Carpentier, and Sharkey. It's pretty apparent to me that Frazier had the better tools on the inside, the better overall punching abilities, and the overall skill set/attributes needed to defeat Dempsey.
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Frazier was a machine. A great fighter, but so was Dempsey.

Technically I give Dempsey a great chance because he had the faster hands and could hurt Frazier on his way in. His lead right was a pin point finisher and could come straight over the Frazier hook. On the inside Dempsey again has the edge. Frazier was a great inside fighter with two hands free where as Dempsey could really maul within a clinch. Frazier has size on his side and the ability to double up power shots, can grind you down but was largely a rythem fighter. Dempsey was a spurt fighter who worked an opening first before diving in. Frazier was programed like an energizer bunny and could be picked off. Joe stalked and gathered momentum rolling the way he did to direct weight from one foot to the other as much as to avoid being hit. If he had his feet in position Joe would pivot into action regardless of what was coming at him. And that could be suicidal against a tough, fast handed puncher like Dempsey who knew when to strike, when to smother and where to aim after hundreds of fights. Joe could chug all night out of a rhythm, he knew where the other guy was because joes movement often directed his opponent to where he wanted them to be. Thats why joe could fight with bad eyes but nobody can walk through the better punchers. Dempsey was one of the better punchers. He would meet Joe head on, time the attacks and maul away in close. Great great fighters can think on their feet and overcome weight advantages by landing more and using experience.
 
#38 ·
Bil1234 said:
It should be noted that in Dempsey's era he was allowed to stand over oponents who had just been dropped and wind up and hit them with his biggest punches as they litterally just got up. Give Frazier that same chance and he'd have a lot more KOs where the people were counted out, too.

Look at Dempsey's fight with Willard. He stood over Willard and hit him with huge shots as Willard was getting up and after 4 rounds of it Willard was finally stopped on his stool. I can only imagine how hurt Willard would have been if guys like Marciano, Foreman, Tyson, Cooney, Shavers, or Tua were allowed to do that to him...or even Frazier for that matter.

Dempsey is overrated head to head. Watch Frazier's fights with Chuvalo, Quarry, Mathis, Ellis, and Zyglewicz. Then watch Dempsey's fights vs Willard, Firpo, Carpentier, and Sharkey. It's pretty apparent to me that Frazier had the better tools on the inside, the better overall punching abilities, and the overall skill set/attributes needed to defeat Dempsey.
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Dempsey stopped Willard in 3 rds, Jess did not come out for the 4th.
Frazier pounded on Mathis for 11 rounds, he hit Machen with everything, including the kitchen sink.

Stoppages over Stander,Daniels and Ziggy are meaningless and devalue the title.
Frazier was essentially a one handed power puncher and imo his power does not rank with Dempsey's and because Dempsey had two handed power ,his "punching abilities "are superior ,imo.
How does Frazier have more skill than Dempsey? Frazier knew only one way to fight , he never circled an opponent and leapt in , he never regrouped then attacked , he came forward all the time, predictable, and one dimensional .against the only big banger he fought he was cake.
 
#39 ·
Cormac said:
Which heavyweight of any ability did Foster drop?

You need to read up on Dempsey's formative years and compare his being thrown to the wolves at the start of his career ,pressured to take fight against Langford,Smith and Moran when he was a scrawny lhvy, [fights he sensibly refused,]and the fact that he was a teenaged middleweight

when Downey beat him.

Langford was the Coloured heavyweight Champion in 1916 when Dempsey's then manager the ruthless John The Barber Reisler tried to

talk Dempsey into fighting him, that year Langford kod Wills, Clark,Jeannette ,and beat Mcvey twice, he
was hardly past it.

The bona -fides of Dempsey's "ko " by Fynn are still debated today, his ko of Flynn in the rematch is not.

Meehan a 4 round specialist , beat Dempsey twice over that distance, 6 months later he did the same to Langford.
In comparing power you should bear in mind Dempsey knocked men OUT.

Quarry,Chuvalo, Bonavena ,Mathis,Machen ,Bugner ,Ali, were all on their feet at the end,and Ellis was retired on his stool.Frazier pounded on an old Machen for the best part of 10 rds before the referee halted matters in the last round.
Frazier was a grinder.
Dempsey sparked you.

Compare Dempseys early years when he was sleeping on park benches and subsisting on bar handouts ,with the cosseted start of Frazier, nursed along by Cloverlay, steered clear of the WBA elminating tournament by Durham, and after Bonavena dropped him twice, kept him away from punchers until that fateful day in Kingston.
Delve into Dempsey's origins as a fighter ,and gain some perspective about him.

Until then there isn't much point us continuing this.
Click to expand...
yes, it is why your opinion is very supported on this thread , you are a master making excuses for every defeatd of dempsey :lol:
 
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#40 ·
Cormac said:
Dempsey stopped Willard in 3 rds, Jess did not come out for the 4th.
Frazier pounded on Mathis for 11 rounds, he hit Machen with everything, including the kitchen sink.

.
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:rofl jesus you are not very smart.... dempsey did not have to go to the corner after he dropped willard and still he had to hit willard once and again and again and again to stop him... frazier would have looked a killer under these rules . frazier was bigger,stronger, harder puncher, tougher , more skilled, he was better in everything
 
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