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heavy_hands

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Discussion starter · #1 · (Edited)
he did beat.. pinklon thomas, the same thomas that holmes avoided, he did beat green, the same green that holmes never faced,he did beat page, the same page that holmes avoided,he did beat tate,he was competitive against a 81 holmes in his absolute peak and he lasted the 15 rounds with him,of course that larry won... but berbick never was the rag doll or the victim of holmes.. in his prime he was a very good fighter, he got stopped by a hard puncher like mercado when he was green. and mike tyson destroyed him because mike was a prime machine and berbick was not even in his prime, and tyson was tyson.. i like this guy.. i think that he is very underrated.

check the minute 0:43, he was brave and could take a good shot
 
not really, i can see him being underrated by anyone calling him a bum, but b2b losses v snipes n gordon show that he was far from atg status imo.

holmes could potentially have faced him a second time, but i see no reason why that would have been a different result.
 
that highlight film...trevor was so full of it...that 11 second mark...when mills lane went down....trevor was like "oh shit..might get DQ'ed" luckily for him Mills wasn't a pussy about that kind of thing.
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
yes, it is what i mean, he is called bum sometimes.. he was a very solid fighter, and i never was insinutating that he was an all time great.. but he deserved much more respect than he got actually from many people, he was a solid contender, i can´t think why a guy like quarry was better than him for example..
 
No, I don't think he's underrated, but regarded more as an underachiever for the nationally televised back-to-back losses against Snipes and Gordon which set his second shot at a version of the world title back by two or three years. He was in a good place after Page, and blew it badly, especially with the sleepy non-effort against Gordon (which I still suspect of being a walking tank job by Trevor).

I agreed with Joe Swessel's 150-135 card which had Holmes the shutout winner over Berbick. I also expected before their title bout that Trevor would not attempt to win, but instead gain credibility by becoming the first challenger to reach the final bell against Larry. I told coworkers the day of that match that I expected Berbick to survive with a defensively oriented advance. Snapping the streak of eight consecutive HW Title wins by Holmes did exactly what Trevor intended, allowed him to maintain the career momentum which started with his knockout of Tate.

To me, he was better against Page than he was against Ali. Strong durable guy with good stamina and decent power, but not great punching technique, boxing skills or speed. Smart within his limitations. Chuvalo timed his retirement and vacancy of the Canadian HW Title wisely. George was in his 40s, and Berbick would have been his toughest opponent since Ali II. This might be a good moment to point out though that while Chuvalo crushed Earl McLeay in one to defend that title in '77, it took Trevor seven rounds to stop McLeay in '79 in succeeding George to that vacated crown.

Mercado and Tyson caught him early, as did Snipes with an opening round knockdown, but he was otherwise pretty good in dealing with big punchers. In fact, he won against a variety of different heavyweights, but I'll admit I was very surprised that Pinklon Thomas was one of them.

Consistency is what set Holmes apart from the rest of the pack from '78 to '85. Berbick was one of those guys who did blow hot and cold. Like Jerry Quarry, he won bouts he should have lost, lost matches he should have one, but as happened with JQ against Frazier and Ali, Trevor was way over his head against Holmes and Tyson.

He did manage to snag a share of the triple splintered HW Title, however briefly, one of those guys who lucked out being around at just the right time. Coulda done better at times, coulda done worse at times, so for me, things evened out for him overall.
 
What about Rudduck/tucker? Imo larry was too far gone to be considered his best win. Yeh yeh i know he went on to beat mercer and give tough fights to holyfield and mccall, but i think tyson still has better wins
Holmes also changed his style and approach radically for his 1990s comeback, admittedly drawing from the Foreman template.

In 1988, Don King showed up on his doorstep with THREE MILLION DOLLARS to fight Tyson on short notice, so Larry, knowing at age 38 he had neither the time to train properly or opportunity to shake off 18 months of retirement accumulated ring rust with a tuneup or two, took the cash. To his eternal credit, Holmes did not lie down quickly against a peaking Mike, or quit with the kind of pocketed multimillion dollar guarantee Duran already secured in New Orleans for SRL II. He made an honest effort, actually won a couple rounds against one of the fastest starting heavyweights in history, and did better than many noteworthy Tyson victims.

For his return in the summer of 1991, he now took the time to train properly, adapted to the reality of being in his 40s by not using his legs so much, and extended himself with a pair of ten round shutouts against veteran trial-horses (specifically Eddie Gonzales) before the year was out, ahead of the Mercer surprise.

Yes, he was three and a half years older for Mercer than Tyson, and ten pounds heavier, but he was far better prepared, no longer rusty, and no longer trying to box on his toes as if he was in his 20s. The Tyson of 1988 would have experienced considerably more headaches with the active, smarter and better trained Holmes of 1992 than the rusty, misfiring and age unadapted version who fell in four rounds. (As soon as Larry went to his toes to start that fatal stanza, with hands at his sides, Michael Spinks immediately started screaming from the fourth row, "What are you doing? Concentrate! Concentrate! Jesus, what are you doing?" The wiser and better trained sage who schooled Mercer would never have made that kind of mistake.) Holmes shed 30 pounds in short order for Tyson, a strain he spared himself of for his 1990s comeback. Mike would still beat Larry, but not that quickly or easily.

As for Tyson's best win, I'm actually partial to Tyrell Biggs these days. Mike was at the peak of prime competitive preparedness and experience, and keyed his hook with body shots to wear Biggs down with attrition, after quickly taking Tyrell out of his fight plan. Maybe Tyson was better for some much briefer knockouts, but here's an instance where Mike was firing on the most cylinders for an extended number of rounds against a primed opponent. I suspect he started going backwards with the five briefer defenses he had prior to Douglas in Japan. I can't see Tokyo Buster prevailing over the Tyson of the Biggs fight, who took away Tyrell's legs with body shots, jabbed as an effective diversionary tactic, and did not rely on a single big punch to win, but methodically pounded down an athletically primed guy with a then solid chin, as Mike had uniquely done to Pinklon Thomas earlier in 1987.

Tyson claimed he could have wiped out Biggs at anytime after round three. Mike would have been well served by practicing wearing down other failed challengers like the chinny Carl Williams with that same body attack prior to Douglas. Why didn't he after Biggs? Well, one possible hypothesis is that Tyson-Biggs was the final HW Title fight scheduled for the Championship Distance, eliminating the Championship Rounds impact of such a body punching. Mike himself might be the best guy to ask about this, but early rounds could never again be conceded on cards against the payoff of a later round rally purchased by steady body punishment, not with just 12 rounds scheduled as opposed to the championship distance. (Tyson only lost the opening round to Tyrell, but if Biggs had somehow managed to carry out the plan mapped out for him, Mike's body blows still would have eventually taken away his legs and paid off late. This match showed the proper direction for Tyson to move in if he was to continue improving as a fighter.)
 
Discussion starter · #16 ·
He's not underrated, but was lucky to catch Page, Thomas, and Tate at the right time, and was competitive for most of the early to mid 80's.
yes , he was lucky for every good win that he had.. sure, he did beat these guys without excuses simply he was better than them, thomas was very good when berbick did beat him
 
yes , he was lucky for every good win that he had.. sure, he did beat these guys without excuses simply he was better than them, thomas was very good when berbick did beat him
Trevor's a decent fighter, but Pinklon Thomas was having his drug issues, and Page didn't train right, in addititon to having his promotional issues. I have a copy of his fight with Berbick, and two things happened in the second round that sealed the fight for Trevor. First, Page broke his thumb, and second, Trevor hit him with a nice barrage of body punches.From that point on, Trevor owned Page.
 
Holmes also changed his style and approach radically for his 1990s comeback, admittedly drawing from the Foreman template.

In 1988, Don King showed up on his doorstep with THREE MILLION DOLLARS to fight Tyson on short notice, so Larry, knowing at age 38 he had neither the time to train properly or opportunity to shake off 18 months of retirement accumulated ring rust with a tuneup or two, took the cash. To his eternal credit, Holmes did not lie down quickly against a peaking Mike, or quit with the kind of pocketed multimillion dollar guarantee Duran already secured in New Orleans for SRL II. He made an honest effort, actually won a couple rounds against one of the fastest starting heavyweights in history, and did better than many noteworthy Tyson victims.

For his return in the summer of 1991, he now took the time to train properly, adapted to the reality of being in his 40s by not using his legs so much, and extended himself with a pair of ten round shutouts against veteran trial-horses (specifically Eddie Gonzales) before the year was out, ahead of the Mercer surprise.

Yes, he was three and a half years older for Mercer than Tyson, and ten pounds heavier, but he was far better prepared, no longer rusty, and no longer trying to box on his toes as if he was in his 20s. The Tyson of 1988 would have experienced considerably more headaches with the active, smarter and better trained Holmes of 1992 than the rusty, misfiring and age unadapted version who fell in four rounds. (As soon as Larry went to his toes to start that fatal stanza, with hands at his sides, Michael Spinks immediately started screaming from the fourth row, "What are you doing? Concentrate! Concentrate! Jesus, what are you doing?" The wiser and better trained sage who schooled Mercer would never have made that kind of mistake.) Holmes shed 30 pounds in short order for Tyson, a strain he spared himself of for his 1990s comeback. Mike would still beat Larry, but not that quickly or easily.

As for Tyson's best win, I'm actually partial to Tyrell Biggs these days. Mike was at the peak of prime competitive preparedness and experience, and keyed his hook with body shots to wear Biggs down with attrition, after quickly taking Tyrell out of his fight plan. Maybe Tyson was better for some much briefer knockouts, but here's an instance where Mike was firing on the most cylinders for an extended number of rounds against a primed opponent. I suspect he started going backwards with the five briefer defenses he had prior to Douglas in Japan. I can't see Tokyo Buster prevailing over the Tyson of the Biggs fight, who took away Tyrell's legs with body shots, jabbed as an effective diversionary tactic, and did not rely on a single big punch to win, but methodically pounded down an athletically primed guy with a then solid chin, as Mike had uniquely done to Pinklon Thomas earlier in 1987.

Tyson claimed he could have wiped out Biggs at anytime after round three. Mike would have been well served by practicing wearing down other failed challengers like the chinny Carl Williams with that same body attack prior to Douglas. Why didn't he after Biggs? Well, one possible hypothesis is that Tyson-Biggs was the final HW Title fight scheduled for the Championship Distance, eliminating the Championship Rounds impact of such a body punching. Mike himself might be the best guy to ask about this, but early rounds could never again be conceded on cards against the payoff of a later round rally purchased by steady body punishment, not with just 12 rounds scheduled as opposed to the championship distance. (Tyson only lost the opening round to Tyrell, but if Biggs had somehow managed to carry out the plan mapped out for him, Mike's body blows still would have eventually taken away his legs and paid off late. This match showed the proper direction for Tyson to move in if he was to continue improving as a fighter.)
:deal
I thoroughly enjoyed reading that. Excellent and informative post. Thanks.
 
:deal
I thoroughly enjoyed reading that. Excellent and informative post. Thanks.
Hey man, thanks for taking the time to actually read all that! I also enjoyed putting it together.

You'd find with other essay type submissions of mine that I tend to blow hot and cold, depending on my wildly varying levels of attention. I was decently focused when typing that one up. An obvious review of Tyson-Briggs in the process of composing made the time spent worthwhile. I wish Tyrell had stuck to the plan laid out for him, but Mike's role in quickly taking him out of it shouldn't be ignored either.

Everybody familiar with my seven year posting history going back to the former ESB Classic knows my biggest peeve with boxing since the 1980s is the elimination of 15 rounders. (That was key to my permanently becoming a former fan, hence my confinement to boxing nostalgia forums.) My comments about Tyson-Briggs zeroed me into really sharp clarity for the first time about how the limit reduction to 12 rounds may have directly impacted Mike's career trajectory.

Tyson-Tucker was originally scheduled for the Championship Distance, but shortened to 12 rounds at the last moment. Mike didn't bank on body shots to the same extent with the sturdy Tucker. His next match was Tyrell, the only scheduled 15 rounder he'd ever have, and Tyson fought like it with that concentrated torso burrowing. A 15 round rematch with Mitch Green where Mike ditches the chin to go downstairs would have been interesting. Green would never beat him, but could Tyson take that crazy bastard out in a championship distance grudge rematch with body shot attrition?
 
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