[Duo]

You weren't alone Chris. In fact so many people were saying I was the Doctor that I was beginning to think so myself. Told you I was slipping!
Its a good thread about John. After I saw him beat Les Stevens at the Albert Hall I followed his career very closely. Most of his fights were on TV. I always say if he had got Bob Foster when he was calling for him he would have beat him. But of course Ahumada got him first,and got a draw. Then it was obvious that one,Ahumada was a tough bastard,and two that Bob wasn't the fighter he has been. John beat Ahumada close but clear. But of course Jorge wasn't even the best light heavy in Argentina. I always wondered who would have won. I think,maybe wishfully,that it would have been John. As @Duo said in his fantastic post,Galindez had a tendency to cut,and John had an edge n reach and boxing ability. I think at his peak he would have exploited that.
And because I'm a very old man,I've got to comment on the price of ale. Where I start my drinking on my occasional outings,the bitter is £1.90p a pint. And if I give the barmaid 2 pounds and tell her to put the 10 pence in the charity box,she looks at me as though I'm crackers. Not many punters do it.

Although I favor Galindez over Conteh in such a pairing, it must be emphasized that John not only possessed that spearing jab but also a defensively protruding forehead (not as a dedicated weapon, but with chin properly tucked onto the sternum as Edwin Haislet and John J. Walsh instructed their college students and in their classic textbook manuals), and Galindez did have a manner of fighting which rendered him susceptible to butts (as we saw in Galindez-Kates I).

Mike Rossman's plan for dethroning Victor was specifically to "go for the eyes" with a combination of his division best jab with some infighting (an approach which Galindez openly applauded him for when the referee stopped it on the Ali-Spinks II undercard in a manly display of sportsmanship).

Regarding how Conteh maintained his chin tucked/forehead protruding position in Saad Muhammad I, it was indeed strictly defensive, as he leaned his torso back to slip Matt's punches. For Saad Muhammad to incur butt induced damage, it would be necessary for him to come forward with his own head, therefore exclusively his own responsibility if it happened. John's head position was a protective deterrent against any attempt by an opponent to use his own head as an illegal offensive weapon.

Great legs entail different elements aside from foot speed and mobility, like keeping the knees bent while heels are off the floor. Try that for 15 three minute rounds sometime. It provides power and defensive evasion from punches. Conteh's legs are quite muscular, especially his calves. This is usually a case of genetics (my father, I, and my girlfriend were also endowed with muscular calves), but John's manner of leg use certainly supported that sort of development and maintenance. Joe "John Garfield" Rein described how Ray Robinson taught him to bend his left knee to extend his jab, compensating for a short reach, and we can see Conteh do that.

As great a boxer as Arguello was, he was also extremely tall for the lower weights he held titles at, and his reach was listed at as much as 74 inches. John, at 6'0" had a listed reach of 76 inches, so very good but not freakish dimensions for a light heavyweight. In that context, he may be a better text model than Arguello for orthodox boxing technique.

Bob Foster admitted that getting a draw against Ahumada in Albuquerque was the same as a loss. He knew when to ditch the title, but like others just couldn't stay away. After Saad Muhammad II, Conteh at least returned for a final win, then left for good.

Concerning timelines, BF really beat up Fourie in August 1973 (he purposely did not attempt a knockout in their first match), while John earlier took the European, Commonwealth and British Titles from CF in May 1973. I think a case could be made that Conteh should have been challenging Bob in place of the Fourie rematch in December 1973, particularly since BF had previous expressed a willingness to give CF a rematch before John took those three titles from Chris. It may have been an ideal passing of the torch from Bob to John of the undisputed LHW title, or BF's final great defense.

 

[Duo]

I think you're right about Franklin/Saad. He must have been a hell of a tough man. But I don't know whether you know but Conteh developed a bad drink problem towards the end of his career. The last really good fight he put up was against Mate Parlov,who you mentioned. Who was a good southpaw and just won the title. Conteh lost the decision but it was a bad robbery. I think the next or next but one fight he had was in the UK against an American,Jesse Burnett. Big puncher but himself possibly a bit past best . A peak Conteh,I think,would have outpointed him without too much trouble. As it was,he struggled,got put down at least once and this time it was Burnett who got robbed. John pulled no trees up after that and got his shot at Saad. But the Conteh you saw in THAT fight was the real John Conteh,hardly anything in it. That must have been his swan song because you know what happened in the second fight.
Interestingly,I read johns book and in it he tells of being in a night club and asking one of Frank Sinatras henchmen if he could be introduced to him,after his 2nd Saad fight. Guy came back and said no. Wasn't a Sinatra fan before,even less so after.

Everybody in the States knew John had a bad drinking problem after his drunken hotel rampage following Saad Muhammad II. It was reported extensively in the American press, and was devastating to Conteh's reputation for class and dignity, causing him to be stereotyped instead as just another drunk Englishman. (My sister's Mormon roommates in Boston were asking me if there was indeed such a thing as a sober Britisher. I told them the Queen's subjects were good for dating because alcohol kills germs, thus they were thoroughly disinfected.)

 

[Duo]

Went to the cock reduction clinic once but that's where my expertise ends.

Yeah, I had my circumcision as a newborn. Been quite happy with the results. I can ask naive girls if they've ever tried hallucinogenic mushrooms, and if the answer's "No," I can drop my drawers and offer to let them sample my mushroom.

 

[Boxfan]

Everybody in the States knew John had a bad drinking problem after his drunken hotel rampage following Saad Muhammad II. It was reported extensively in the American press, and was devastating to Conteh's reputation for class and dignity, causing him to be stereotyped instead as just another drunk Englishman. (My sister's Mormon roommates in Boston were asking me if there was indeed such a thing as a sober Britisher. I told them the Queen's subjects were good for dating because alcohol kills germs, thus they were thoroughly disinfect

Everybody in the States knew John had a bad drinking problem after his drunken hotel rampage following Saad Muhammad II. It was reported extensively in the American press, and was devastating to Conteh's reputation for class and dignity, causing him to be stereotyped instead as just another drunk Englishman. (My sister's Mormon roommates in Boston were asking me if there was indeed such a thing as a sober Britisher. I told them the Queen's subjects were good for dating because alcohol kills germs, thus they were thoroughly disinfected.)

As you will already know it also kills erections. So if they were expecting anything other than a trip to Church they will have been metaphorically,but not practically,fucked if they dated a pissed up Englishman. God help them if they converted him and wanted to be one of his wives.

 

[Boxfan]

@Duo It also kills erections. So if they dated a pissed up Englishman and converted him if they wanted to be one of his wives they'd have been fucked. Metaphorically.

 

[Boxfan]

Although I favor Galindez over Conteh in such a pairing, it must be emphasized that John not only possessed that spearing jab but also a defensively protruding forehead (not as a dedicated weapon, but with chin properly tucked onto the sternum as Edwin Haislet and John J. Walsh instructed their college students and in their classic textbook manuals), and Galindez did have a manner of fighting which rendered him susceptible to butts (as we saw in Galindez-Kates I).

Mike Rossman's plan for dethroning Victor was specifically to "go for the eyes" with a combination of his division best jab with some infighting (an approach which Galindez openly applauded him for when the referee stopped it on the Ali-Spinks II undercard in a manly display of sportsmanship).

Regarding how Conteh maintained his chin tucked/forehead protruding position in Saad Muhammad I, it was indeed strictly defensive, as he leaned his torso back to slip Matt's punches. For Saad Muhammad to incur butt induced damage, it would be necessary for him to come forward with his own head, therefore exclusively his own responsibility if it happened. John's head position was a protective deterrent against any attempt by an opponent to use his own head as an illegal offensive weapon.

Great legs entail different elements aside from foot speed and mobility, like keeping the knees bent while heels are off the floor. Try that for 15 three minute rounds sometime. It provides power and defensive evasion from punches. Conteh's legs are quite muscular, especially his calves. This is usually a case of genetics (my father, I, and my girlfriend were also endowed with muscular calves), but John's manner of leg use certainly supported that sort of development and maintenance. Joe "John Garfield" Rein described how Ray Robinson taught him to bend his left knee to extend his jab, compensating for a short reach, and we can see Conteh do that.

As great a boxer as Arguello was, he was also extremely tall for the lower weights he held titles at, and his reach was listed at as much as 74 inches. John, at 6'0" had a listed reach of 76 inches, so very good but not freakish dimensions for a light heavyweight. In that context, he may be a better text model than Arguello for orthodox boxing technique.

Bob Foster admitted that getting a draw against Ahumada in Albuquerque was the same as a loss. He knew when to ditch the title, but like others just couldn't stay away. After Saad Muhammad II, Conteh at least returned for a final win, then left for good.

Concerning timelines, BF really beat up Fourie in August 1973 (he purposely did not attempt a knockout in their first match), while John earlier took the European, Commonwealth and British Titles from CF in May 1973. I think a case could be made that Conteh should have been challenging Bob in place of the Fourie rematch in December 1973, particularly since BF had previous expressed a willingness to give CF a rematch before John took those three titles from Chris. It may have been an ideal passing of the torch from Bob to John of the undisputed LHW title, or BF's final great defense.

I thought at the time Conteh would have beat Foster if he got the shot that either Chris or Jorge Ahumada got. Not sure about his peak though. He was one of the best,just behind Archie Moore and maybe level with Harold Johnson. As a light heavy though,not heavy.

 

[Pedderrs]

old men :-(

@Hands of Iron 's age thread has a lot to answer for.

Still can hardly believe @Pedderrs , what with his intimate JCVD and Baby Jake Matlala knowledge, is only 26.

But what do I know, I used to think @Boxfan was Dr Asif.

My knowledge of Baby Jake is rudimentary at best but I do consider myself the forum's authority on all things Jean Claude. And that's not because I'm egotistical. I've studied Jean Claude's all-time great career as intimately as The Monk would like to touch Rob Palmer. I remember when I first saw JC in the film No Retreat, No Surrender. Here he played the evil Ivan, one of the deadliest martial artists operating within Seattle's crime syndicate. Sure, he was breaking people's legs for no good reason and was really unsportsmanlike in some of his fights -- resorting to strangling his opponents with the ring ropes -- but I could see potential in him. This was a future protagonist. I owe everything to JC. It's films like Kickboxer, Lionheart and Universal Soldier that made me the man I am today -- a junior designer for a packaging company in Rugby.

 

[Duo]

I read John's book and in it he tells of being in a night club and asking one of Frank Sinatra's henchmen if he could be introduced to him,after his 2nd Saad fight. Guy came back and said no. Wasn't a Sinatra fan before, even less so after.

Weird, considering how immersed Sinatra was in boxing.

My mother's best friend was a Bobbysoxer in NYC during the late 1930's and early 1940's, and she was never impressed with Sinatra either, having watched him sing live several times before he became famous after actresses were paid to scream, swoon and pretend passing out, triggering a classic manufactured mass hysteria she herself was completely immune to. On the other hand, she went on dates with her Italian fiancé at restaurants in his native Queens where they occasionally got served by some singing waiter named Tony Bennett, and she remains insistent that Bennett, not Sinatra, was the best she ever saw perform live. (Sinatra himself also considered Tony Bennett the best in the business. Remarkable that Bennett's now buried both Frank Sr. and Jr.)

 

[Hands of Iron]

#LesterLies

:-(

 

[Boxfan]

Weird, considering how immersed Sinatra was in boxing.

My mother's best friend was a Bobbysoxer in NYC during the late 1930's and early 1940's, and she was never impressed with Sinatra either, having watched him sing live several times before he became famous after actresses were paid to scream, swoon and pretend passing out, triggering a classic manufactured mass hysteria she herself was completely immune to. On the other hand, she went on dates with her Italian fiancé at restaurants in his native Queens where they occasionally got served by some singing waiter named Tony Bennett, and she remains insistent that Bennett, not Sinatra, was the best she ever saw perform live. (Sinatra himself also considered Tony Bennett the best in the business. Remarkable that Bennett's now buried both Frank Sr. and Jr.)

I didnt know know of Juniors existence,though Im not surprised. Because of his money and what he was there will have been plenty of women willing to lay under the little shit. Although I liked some of his songs,I think his voice was quite average. Elvis for me far better. And he was a musician also,which as far as I know Sinatra wasn't. Somebody correct me if Im wrong.

 

[Boxfan]

#LesterLies

:-(

So theres really no such thing as a cock reduction? Not that I wanted one.

 

[Duo]

I thought at the time Conteh would have beat Foster if he got the shot that either Chris or Jorge Ahumada got. Not sure about his peak though. He was one of the best,just behind Archie Moore and maybe level with Harold Johnson. As a light heavy though,not heavy.

I don't know anybody who thinks Bob would have beaten John when BF "drew" with Ahumada. Jorge did spin Conteh's head with a number of hooks, too many for my liking when looking at what Bobby did to Mike Quarry immediately prior to Chris Finnegan.

Back to the styles thing. If John tries jabbing with BF, he could be in for a rough go of it. He didn't move like Ahumada, or Mike Quarry in the early stages before Mike's near decapitation, and 6'3-1/2" with a 79 inch reach maximized by going low is a logistically different prospect. Rondon had proved though that Conteh could deal with those physical disadvantages, and predicted John would dethrone Bob if given the chance.

Conteh versus Marvin Johnson would have been extremely interesting after Marvin dethroned Parlov, as John had a substantial southpaw resume (enough so that, like Arguello, he was textbook on how to deal with southpaw opposition from the orthodox stance), but there was no question Marvin needed to validate his newly won championship by proving he could beat Matt in a rematch. (Marvin was blessed with the fact of split titles, meaning of course that he was also cursed with never being credited as the world's best LHW. Matt stated throughout his reign that through all the wars he won, Marvin was his most difficult opponent, but the fact remains Marvin had a steel ceiling on how high he could climb at 175.) I think Conteh would have gassed Marvin sufficiently to regain that WBC Title though. John had the hook to the body, Marvin had trouble taking body shots, and I think Conteh would have stood his ground, slipped and stalled well through Marvin's early attack, and John's compromised right may actually have been a defensive benefit here against Marvin's deadly left cross.

As you can tell, I have mixed feelings about Conteh and his chances in certain situations. Galindez was the one who brought stability to the LHWs between BF and Matthew, and Victor's the guy who got into Canastota 14 years ago. He wasn't the more glamourous Monzon, but Galindez, like Monzon and Ali, was a world traveler who was also known and respected in the States. To the American boxing fan's mind, he was the World LHW Champion through the mid 1970's.

 

[Chinny]

When @Duo, @Boxfan, @Lester1583 and @Pedderrs are all posting in a thread about JOHN CONTEH

 

[Duo]

I didn't know know of Junior's existence, though I'm not surprised. Because of his money and what he was there will have been plenty of women willing to lay under the little shit. Although I liked some of his songs, I think his voice was quite average. Elvis for me far better. And he was a musician also,which as far as I know Sinatra wasn't. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

My mother's friend says Junior was much like the old man before those Bobbysoxer actresses helped manufacture Senior's charisma and stage presence, eventually making it real. In fact, I have been able to detect that difference between the two. Junior could mimic his father's singing, but he just never had that command of stage and audience his father mastered.

Ol' Blue Eyes had to beg for the role as Maggio in "From Here to Eternity," to salvage his flagging career, and it was actually Montgomery Clift's coaching which expanded Sinatra's acting repertoire from musicals and comedies to drama. He may have benefited from the performances of paid actresses to originally become a Bobbysoxer idol, but fighting to successfully salvage his career in 1953 changed his course from a has-been to a secured future. Junior was never in that position.

Tony Bennett's on an entirely different level, the one crooner to fully connect with the MTV generation. The Rat Pack wouldn't attempt singing rock because they didn't understand it. Bennett understands it, and that he could make kids go crazy just by hitting a note and holding it like nobody else. For a lot of the Rat Pack, losing fellow members seemed to accelerate their mortality (also burying children in a few instances). For Bennett, not being trapped in that warp of nostalgic retrospection and embracing rather than resenting the march of time may be a key to extending his longevity. He's not wishing time would stand still, he's looking forward.

 

[Duo]

When @Duo, @Boxfan, @Lester1583 and @Pedderrs are all posting in a thread about JOHN CONTEH

When the subject matter gets me to post about boxing, instead of boobs...

 

[Bill Jincock]

Very good fight,if a bit of a grind at times.I've always thought this was an underrated win for Conteh.

Ahumada was at his peak and had become an excellent fighter under Clancy, who tidied up a lot of his technical rough edges without eroding that innate versatile skilled slugging approach so many of the better 60s-80s Argentinian fighters had.He had about twice the fights\years as a pro as Conteh, had come up through the gruelling Argie scene with multiple fights against guys who were top 10\20 contender level at the time like Avenemar Peralta, Juan Aguilar and Galindez, then gone to New York under Clancy and cleaned out a fair amount of the lingering remnants of the Foster-era top 20 like Hal Carroll, Ray Anderson, Billy Wagner, Andy Kendall and Bobby Cassidy, before giving a really good and lauded performance against Foster himself(past prime but still a formidable fighter) with that controversial draw.

He'd gotten over the first title fight pressure there and beaten much of what Bob had left out of him.The Conteh bout was meant to be his night, with Clancy and co. confident enough not to dispute having the fight in England despite the pull he had in New York.

Conteh on the other hand had only been a pro for 3 years, and while Duff thought he had enough talent to go for a title fight this early, he wasn't the favourite for the fight taking into account British and American observers, many of whom that had seen both fight felt Ahumada would have a bit too much savvy in such a first world title fight step up and that this would be a tough learning experience.

Conteh had fought solid competition, but the light heavies he had fought that were close to or at top contender level like schmidtke and Finnegan were all tidy, textbook standup boxer-puncher sorts...the kind where the main threat is in dealing with the accuracy and timing of the straight punches and bouts are mainly a chessmatch affair at mid-distance.He'd fought a lot of heavy journeymen so was already adept at dealing with a knockout threat, but most of those guys were limited offensively to a solid jab\right hand.

He had little experience against a boxer-puncher\slugger hybrid in the distinctive Argentinian style of Ahumada,Galindez, Jorge Fernandez, Laciar etc and his first taste of the style would be against a peak very good practitioner of it in his first world title fight, not a journeyman or second-tier fighter.Whereas Ahumada has maybe not fought anyone as naturally smooth as Conteh, but he's still taken on many more solid examples of versatile or accurate textbook boxer-punchers than Conteh has of his approach.Quite naturally as that style of box-fighting was quite distinctive and rare to see outside of South American fighters of the era.

It's obvious from early on Conteh is having trouble reading Ahumada's rhythm and punching approach, he never really gets into any comfortable groove with the jab, nor is he finding a predictable consistent range for his power punching.But he knuckles down and finds a way to fire back at everything Ahumada does, more or less grinding the fight out on raw talent and versatile natural fighting ability than any kind of comfortable tactical or technical victory.

A lot of very good to great fighters lose these kind of early career challenges and learn from them afterward to grow stronger...that conteh was versatile and talented enough to actually win it was a big showing of his potential as a fighter.It's a shame we never really got to see him build on stuff like this and properly develop as a champion, for the various reasons i'm sure any that have looked into his career will be aware of.